Jesus was not a Sadducee - they were pro-Hasmonean. Jesus was not a Pharisee - they were pro-Herodian and pro-Roman. He was possibly an Essene - they were pro-Davidian. (Broadly speaking, of course.)
Let us imagine that Jesus left the Shroud of Turin neatly folded in the sepulchre and strolled off Emmaus where he bumped into a Sadducee and a Pharisee.
How would Jesus convince them he was the Messiah …?
A Most Miserable Messiah
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Willum
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Re: A Most Miserable Messiah
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by SallyF]
Well he would be confronted with some very tough questions very intimate to both Sadducee and Pharisee that he had no good answers to... Ones they’d be forced to kill him for.
Like, “If you do not know who your father is, how can you enter the Assembly of God? As Deuteronomy states a bastard is cursed even past the tenth generation.�
“How can you advocate paying tithes to a foreign god, Caesar, knowing it is blasphemy?�
“How can you betray Jews by inciting them to handle those idols of the foreign god, Caesar, with those coins that blaspheme, proclaiming his divinity? How can they not be made unclean by them?�
“How could you abrogate the adulteress’ punishment, given to us in Leviticus, defaming God’s laws?�
About the only thing he could convince them of is he worshipped a god not their own.
Well he would be confronted with some very tough questions very intimate to both Sadducee and Pharisee that he had no good answers to... Ones they’d be forced to kill him for.
Like, “If you do not know who your father is, how can you enter the Assembly of God? As Deuteronomy states a bastard is cursed even past the tenth generation.�
“How can you advocate paying tithes to a foreign god, Caesar, knowing it is blasphemy?�
“How can you betray Jews by inciting them to handle those idols of the foreign god, Caesar, with those coins that blaspheme, proclaiming his divinity? How can they not be made unclean by them?�
“How could you abrogate the adulteress’ punishment, given to us in Leviticus, defaming God’s laws?�
About the only thing he could convince them of is he worshipped a god not their own.
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Avoice
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Post #3
The answer is simple:
DO THE WORK THAT THE MESSIAH IS TO ACCORDING TO THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES.
He hasn't done it and doesnt deserve the title. Why people call him the Messiah when he hasn't done anything for anyone is foolish.
DO THE WORK THAT THE MESSIAH IS TO ACCORDING TO THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES.
He hasn't done it and doesnt deserve the title. Why people call him the Messiah when he hasn't done anything for anyone is foolish.
Post #4
To convince Jews of denominations other than his own, he would need to address:
Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:
Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
But first, some background: What exactly is the Messiah?
The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means "anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3) https://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
Members of the Herod Royal family were anointed and reigned as King of the Jews - the Jesus character never did.
Herod the Great built a magnificent temple. The Jesus character is not written of as ever putting one stone on top of another.
Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:
Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
But first, some background: What exactly is the Messiah?
The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means "anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3) https://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
Members of the Herod Royal family were anointed and reigned as King of the Jews - the Jesus character never did.
Herod the Great built a magnificent temple. The Jesus character is not written of as ever putting one stone on top of another.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
Post #5
I hesitate to copy and paste, but these Jewish folks explain things so well, I shall follow the precedent of Member JW and do a little of that here.
One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)
Specifically, the Bible says he will:
Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.
Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists. https://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
The Christians-Jewish propagandists have not written that their possibly fictional "Messiah" fulfilled so much as one of the conditions.
The so-called "Second Coming" looks like excuse for failure.
One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)
Specifically, the Bible says he will:
Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.
Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists. https://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
The Christians-Jewish propagandists have not written that their possibly fictional "Messiah" fulfilled so much as one of the conditions.
The so-called "Second Coming" looks like excuse for failure.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
Post #7
Please allow me to repost from above …
Avoice may add moreSpecifically, the Bible says he will:
Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
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tam
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Post #8
Peace to you,
Sure, one that was torn down and destroyed.
Living stones on the other hand...
Christ (Jaheshua) is building the true Temple with living stones (people), with Himself as the cornerstone.
A living Temple for the living God to dwell within.
If it takes a long time to build a physical temple (one that can be destroyed and would eventually crumble into ruin if not repaired, maintained, replaced) what about a living temple (made of people) that will never be destroyed?
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Herod the Great built a magnificent temple.
Sure, one that was torn down and destroyed.
Not plain old dead stones, no.The Jesus character is not written of as ever putting one stone on top of another.
Living stones on the other hand...
Christ (Jaheshua) is building the true Temple with living stones (people), with Himself as the cornerstone.
A living Temple for the living God to dwell within.
If it takes a long time to build a physical temple (one that can be destroyed and would eventually crumble into ruin if not repaired, maintained, replaced) what about a living temple (made of people) that will never be destroyed?
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Post #9
And how convincing would all that have been to the hypothetical folks Jesus bumped into on the road to Emmaus …?tam wrote: Peace to you,
Herod the Great built a magnificent temple.
Sure, one that was torn down and destroyed.
Not plain old dead stones, no.The Jesus character is not written of as ever putting one stone on top of another.
Living stones on the other hand...
Christ (Jaheshua) is building the true Temple with living stones (people), with Himself as the cornerstone.
A living Temple for the living God to dwell within.
If it takes a long time to build a physical temple (one that can be destroyed and would eventually crumble into ruin if not repaired, maintained, replaced) what about a living temple (made of people) that will never be destroyed?
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
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1213
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Post #10
Ok, thank you. By what the Bible tells, Jesus and his disciples are the third temple.SallyF wrote: Please allow me to repost from above …
Avoice may add moreSpecifically, the Bible says he will:
Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.
Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16
For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,
Colossians 2:9
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21
Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner. This was from the Lord. It is marvelous in our eyes?'
Matt. 21:42
Jews are being gathered up to Israel. And actually, it is God who speaks in Isaiah 43:5-6, it is His promise and it doesn’t seem to speak about Messiah.
Isaiah 2:4 has not yet happened, but I don’t think it should have yet happened.
I think there is no reason to think Zechariah 14:9 should have happened already.
I think also that most of those are not really about Messiah and they don’t seem to even mention Messiah.
