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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:16 pm
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Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trinity

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Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trinity. Did he?

Jesus was a Jew and followed Moses' teachings. His core teaching was :

Matthew 22 (NIV)
The Greatest Commandment

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
http://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/22.htm

The above is the same as Moses told:

Deuteronomy 6:5-7New International Version (NIV)

5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+6%3A5-7

So the "heart and soul" and essence of Jesus belief and his teaching was to believe in One-True-God whom he used to address in love or poetic way as God-the-Father, and to worship no other god.

This is Jesus' overwhelming teaching and all other creeds must be within it and in no way the slightest repugnant to it. If a creed is against it then one is not following the way Jesus was following nor heading to the light Jesus followed.
Right,please?

Regards

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:57 pm
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You aren't demonstrating how there is a conflict between the one true God and the trinity.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:58 pm
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Wootah wrote:

You aren't demonstrating how there is a conflict between the one true God and the trinity.

It is not required as Moses and other prophets/messengers did not believe in any trinity. Trinity is made-in-Rome by Pauline-Christianity, imported from other people.

Regards

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:56 pm
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Re: Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trini

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Peace to you paarsurry!

paarsurrey1 wrote:

Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trinity. Did he?


Correct.

Quote:
Jesus was a Jew and followed Moses' teachings.


Jaheshua was a Jew, but He followed God... and so He obeyed God's teachings and did God's will.

He, in fact, corrected some of Moses' teachings. Such as the law Moses gave on divorce. About that law and why Moses gave it, Christ said:

"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."


Christ then went on to teach the TRUTH from His Father:


"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."



I am not saying that Moses did not know what was true. Only that Moses made an allowance for Israel in the law, because Israel's hearts were hard.

Quote:
His core teaching was :

Matthew 22 (NIV)
The Greatest Commandment

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
http://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/22.htm

The above is the same as Moses told:

Deuteronomy 6:5-7New International Version (NIV)

5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+6%3A5-7

So the "heart and soul" and essence of Jesus belief and his teaching was to believe in One-True-God whom he used to address in love or poetic way as God-the-Father, and to worship no other god.



This is not entirely accurate. Yes, He did bear witness to His Father, the one true God. But those commandments are not about announcing that there is one true God. This was already KNOWN (at least by the Jews). So why would the core of Jaheshua's teaching have been that there is One True God... when He had come to a people who already knew this?

I can understand Mohammad making this the core of his teaching... because he was dealing with polytheism. But were the Jews polytheistic at the time my Lord came in the flesh?


Second... that commandment is not primarily about telling people to believe in the one true God. (there is a different commandment for that) Nor even about commanding people TO love God, per se. Those commandments are telling people HOW to love God... if indeed one is going to serve Him, to enter into a covenant with Him, to love Him.


 ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.


Love God with your WHOLE being.


Don't be divided. Don't be wishy-washy or lukewarm. Love God with your whole heart, mind, soul.


**

Israel had a problem (as many of us do, to our own error) with loving and serving other things in the world, even over God. Such as mammon (which was one issue my Lord addressed when He walked in the flesh).

For example:

"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."



But that warning is not limited to money (mammon). Anytime we try and serve two masters (such as God and religion/men/religious leaders), we will be divided; loving one master and hating the other; devoted to one and despising the other.




So yes, those commandments were indeed the greatest commandments, but these commandments are about LOVE. Loving God with your whole being, loving neighbors as oneself, and Christ expounds upon those with the command to love one's enemies as well; and to love one another as HE has loved US.


Quote:

This is Jesus' overwhelming teaching and all other creeds must be within it and in no way the slightest repugnant to it. If a creed is against it then one is not following the way Jesus was following nor heading to the light Jesus followed.



I will agree with you that anyone teaching something that contradicts Christ... cannot be teaching truth.

But Jaheshua was not following the way... He IS the Way.

"I am the WAY, the Truth and the Life."

He was not following or heading to the light.... He IS the Light.

"I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."


Thank you for the topic and discussion!

Peace again to you, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:54 am
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When John baptised Jesus the Spirit of God descended like a dove and rested on Jesus.

Can you explain that or do you reject it as false?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:38 am
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Peace to you Wootah!

Wootah wrote:

When John baptised Jesus the Spirit of God descended like a dove and rested on Jesus.

Can you explain that or do you reject it as false?


To explain (I do not reject it):

Spirit should not be capitalized. "The spirit of God descended like a dove..." It is the same (holy) spirit that Christ breathed upon His apostles; the same spirit that He poured out at Pentecost; the same spirit that anoints and makes us Christian (if indeed we have received it).

It is the blood/breath/seed of JAH. It is the water of Life.

JAH gives this spirit without end to His Son, who gives it to whomever He chooses. So this (holy) spirit comes from the Father; through the Son; to us (to whomever the Son gives it).

But it is not a person any more than our own blood is a person. It is the blood/breath/seed of JAH.


May anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life!"

(This water is holy spirit, that is poured out from Christ Jaheshua, and that has been given to Him without end from His Father.)


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:51 pm
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Re: Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trini

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paarsurrey1 wrote:

Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trinity. Did he?

Jesus was a Jew and followed Moses' teachings. His core teaching was :

Matthew 22 (NIV)
The Greatest Commandment

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
http://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/22.htm

The above is the same as Moses told:

Deuteronomy 6:5-7New International Version (NIV)

5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+6%3A5-7

So the "heart and soul" and essence of Jesus belief and his teaching was to believe in One-True-God whom he used to address in love or poetic way as God-the-Father, and to worship no other god.

This is Jesus' overwhelming teaching and all other creeds must be within it and in no way the slightest repugnant to it. If a creed is against it then one is not following the way Jesus was following nor heading to the light Jesus followed.
Right,please?


Wrong aqain.

You ignore the fact that Mark adds the fulness to Matthew's truncated version:
Mark 12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’


This makes the Sh'mah the reason for the commandment to love HIM: Deuteronomy 6:4-9; The Sh’mah: Sh’mah, Israel, YHVH Elohanu YHVH echad. Hear, O Israel, YHVH Elohanu (our El), YHVH (is) one. And you shall love YHVH Elohekka with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.

Echad, one. Or unity. Where do we see it used as a unity? Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become ONE flesh. Since they do not become one actual flesh and blood person, this verse must be referring to their unity in marriage.

Digging deeper we find:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-yachid-vs-echad.htm wrote:


Yachid vs. Echad: The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word the has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God ("yachid" or "bad").

Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.

This is most troubling for Jews and Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is never used in reference to God.


John 10:30 I and the Father are one." refers to their Unity, not that Jesus was the Father incarnate.

John 17:21...that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. A person sends another and the other is sent...they cannot be the same person. But this verse says they are ONE which therefore must be a oneness of UNITY.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:28 am
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[Replying to post 6 by tam]

So its magic dust to you?

One of the The Bibles main points is to end the separation between man and God. When Jesus died he tore the veil. Now a sufficient sacrifice has been made God dwells in Christians. Its not the Father or Son but the Spirit that does this. Denying the Spirit is God is to deny this point.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-person.html

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:45 pm
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Peace to you Wootah!

Wootah wrote:

[Replying to post 6 by tam]

So its magic dust to you?


No, it is the blood and breath and seed of JAH (God); as explained more fully in my previous post. If you have questions about any specific point, then by all means, ask them. But I cannot agree to reduce holy spirit (the blood and breath and seed of God) to the description of 'magic dust'; especially since I do not even know what that is supposed to mean. Do you?


Quote:
One of the The Bibles main points is to end the separation between man and God. When Jesus died he tore the veil. Now a sufficient sacrifice has been made God dwells in Christians. Its not the Father or Son but the Spirit that does this. Denying the Spirit is God is to deny this point.


"If anyone loves me, he will obey my commands. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with(in) them."

The Father and the Son do indeed come and dwell within us... by means of holy spirit.

Your understanding seems to have the Father and Son separate from us and only this third person dwelling within us. The understanding I have shared with you that I received from my Lord has both the Father and the Son being in us (and us in them), by means of holy spirit.


As to your article:

Quote:
The Bible provides many ways to help us understand that the Holy Spirit is truly a person—that is, He is a personal being, rather than an impersonal thing. First, every pronoun used in reference to the Spirit is “he” not “it.” The original Greek language of the New Testament is explicit in confirming the person of the Holy Spirit. The word for “Spirit” (pneuma) is neuter and would naturally take neuter pronouns to have grammatical agreement. Yet, in many cases, masculine pronouns are found (e.g., John 15:26; 16:13-14). Grammatically, there is no other way to understand the pronouns of the New Testament related to the Holy Spirit—He is referred to as a “He,” as a person.


This paragraph is not quite accurate. Yes, the bible always uses the word 'he' to describe the holy spirit (in the new testament at least; the OT does not always use a pronoun one way or the other).

However, the word translated into 'he' is ekeinos.

And that word ekeinos can be translated as he, she, it, etc.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1565&t=KJV

The scribes always CHOOSE to translate "ekeinos" as "he" when describing holy spirit. But not because the text supports this. Indeed, spirit (pneuma) on its own is neuter, as gotquestions.org admits in the paragraph above (I bolded that part). Rather, the scribes CHOOSE to translate ekeinos as 'he' when describing holy spirit, because of their pre-held belief that holy spirit is the third person in the trinity.

They allowed their belief to form the translation. But that does not make for an accurate translation, does it? So the scribes (and teachers of the law... aka... religious leaders) have made a muck of things. As they have always done; which is why Christ said 'woe to you scribes and teachers of the law'; and why even Jeremiah wrote of the erring pen of the scribes.


**

So... oftentimes spirit refers to the blood/breath/seed of JAH. Not some third and nameless person in a trinity.

Sometimes, however, Spirit is referring specifically to a person: to Christ. Which is why there are some places in what is written, where spirit SHOULD be personified.

From your link, for example:

Quote:
Paul likewise referred to the Holy Spirit as God in 2 Corinthians 3:17–18, stating, “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.”


But Paul is not speaking about God when he says Lord, here; Paul is speaking about Christ.

The Lord who is the Spirit in this verse is Christ.

We can know this for a few reasons:

First, Paul often refers to Christ as Lord; in fact just a couple of sentences later, Paul specifically says that [Jesus] Christ is Lord. Second, is it not Christ we turn to if we want the 'veil' to be removed (from verse 16)? People turn to Moses and the law, the veil remains. People turn to Christ, the veil is removed. Yes? Third, who is it that we have freedom in? Is it not Christ? Is it not the Son who sets us free?

And fourth, verse 18 states that "we are being transformed into 'his' image" (meaning the image of the Lord, who is the Spirit, from the verse in context). Yes? So whose image is it that we are being transformed into? Paul states it unequivocally, in Romans 8:29:

For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.



When Paul states here that the Lord is the Spirit; He is stating that Christ is the Spirit.


**


So... there is holy spirit (the breath, blood, seed of God) that Christ pours out upon us, that He breathed upon the apostles; that God breathed into Adam; that is the water of life, the anointing/baptism of holy spirit. And there is the Spirit that refers to Christ (and this should make sense, since Christ is spirit and He is the Holy One of God. He is both spirit and holy.. aka... the Holy Spirit).


The scribes and teachers did not understand this; and so that lack of understanding is translated into the text.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:02 pm
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[Replying to post 9 by tam]

Quote:
No it is the blood and breath and seed of JAH (God); as explained more fully in my previous post. If you have questions about any specific point, then by all means, ask them. But I cannot agree to reduce holy spirit (the blood and breath and seed of God) to the description of 'magic dust'; especially since I do not even know what that is supposed to mean. Do you?


It means you dont know what blood and breath and seed of jah means. Imagine saying fairy dust reverentially and you will understand what you are doing.

The rest of your post seems irrelevant until you can be intelligble on that point and defeated when you can't.

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