The Death of Judas (Both Versions of the Story)

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The Death of Judas (Both Versions of the Story)

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Post by Jagella »

The New Testament includes two versions of the story of the death of Judas. Matthew 27:5 tells us that Judas hanged himself, and Acts 1:18 says that Judas fell head-first and was disemboweled from the fall.

Most people might read these passages and see that there is a conflict between these two stories. Since these two stories are contradictory, at least one of them must be untrue, and we would then know that the Bible has at least one error in it.

Christian apologists cannot tolerate any errors in the Bible or in their beliefs, so they must reconcile these two conflicting stories. But how?

I am acquainted with an apologetic that is popular with Jehovah's Witnesses which they use to resolve the two stories of the death of Judas. According to at least two Jehovah's Witnesses I've spoken to, Judas hanged himself like Matthew 27:5 says, but the rope broke. Judas then fell, and the fall disemboweled him like we are told in Acts 1:18.

Question for Debate: Is this apologetic for the death of Judas plausible?

I can think of at least two reasons why the proposed reconciliation of the paradox of the death of Judas is not plausible. For one thing, nowhere does the Bible say that the rope Judas used to hang himself broke. Matthew tells us Judas hanged himself, and if Judas did hang himself, then hanging was the cause of his death. He could not have died that way if the rope broke.

The second objection I can raise is that if Judas fell headfirst like Acts tells us, then he could not have fallen that way if he hanged himself! Unless, of course, apologists wish to argue that Judas hanged himself by his feet.

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Re: The Death of Judas (Both Versions of the Story)

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Post by Clownboat »

AquinasForGod wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:53 pm [Replying to Clownboat in post #47]

That doesn't follow.

If God inspires me to write a poem, it doesn't mean God writes the poem through me. It means he moves me to write a poem about a topic. I choose the words I write. I choose how I tell the story for whatever topic I was moved to write about. I am human, so my story will not be perfect. I will use my understandings I have now, which seems correct now as science is, but perhaps 2000 years from now, humans will laugh at our science for how primitive and wrong it was. They might say, hey this guy was very wrong about science.

But they missed the point of my story. It was not to teach science. I used our present scientific understanding of the world and included that in my story. My story was to teach a moral lesson, let's say. The fact that my present scientific understanding of the world turns out to be totally wrong has nothing to do with if God inspired me to write the story.
Then it seems, you reduce the Bible to nothing more than a poem written by a human that credits a god, drugs or love for the inspiration.

If that is all the Bible is, then we really have nothing to discuss as no poem you write, no matter who you credit the inspiration to would actually have an effect on our eternal soul. So perhaps the Bible also has no actual impact on our eternal souls? That would make sense and it really matters not who or what you credit the inspiration to in that case... it is like a poem.

I was coming at this from the perspective the the Bible is special (a God being behind it in some way), not just some ordinary work like a poem inspired by a DMT trip or credited to a lover or a god for inspiration.
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Re: The Death of Judas (Both Versions of the Story)

Post #52

Post by Difflugia »

tam wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:55 pmThere does not appear to be any word 'fell' or 'falling' in the verse.

The word being translated as 'falling' is actually a word that means to become (or something similar). I do not know why the word 'falling' is being used.
It's used because the Greek phrase idiomatically means that Judas fell headfirst. πρηνὴς means prone and facedown when applied to a person. The text literally says that Judas, "having become prone, cracked in the middle and all his intestines poured out." To "become prone" in Greek idiom implies falling, so Luke would have expected his readers to understand it that way, particularly with the added context.

If the phrase is ambiguous, it would be similar to the English idiom to "have lunch." It is just ambiguous enough, for example, that one can imagine a sentence where "had lunch" means that someone merely has a sandwich in her pocket. The added context of Acts 1:18, though, would be like saying that someone "having had lunch, felt so full that she loosened her belt." If an author wrote that and meant anything other than "having eaten lunch," the author was trying to be misunderstood. So it is with Acts 1:18. Judas "became prone" so hard that all of his intestines popped out. If Luke (or the god that inspired him) expected any Greek readers to understand that in any other way than the idiomatic "fell headfirst," he was being foolish, disingenuous, or both. To the contrary, I think that Luke was trying to be understood by his readers. Translators that use the word "falling" agree with me.
tam wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:55 pmI read another theory that the word being translated as fall (but meaning 'to become' or something similar) actually comes from the root word that means 'swollen, to swell up'. I do not know if that is correct or not, but it might be worth looking at how the word might otherwise be translated, rather than just say these two accounts are contradictory, therefore, everything is false. Just an idea ; )
One author tried to tie the word πρηνὴς (prenes) to the verb πίμπρασθαι (pimprasthai), a "medical term" for something being inflamed. As his treatment was almost entirely speculative (I linked the article if anyone wants to read it), modern scholars universally reject the etymology.
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Re: The Death of Judas (Both Versions of the Story)

Post #53

Post by AquinasForGod »

Clownboat wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:03 pm
AquinasForGod wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:53 pm [Replying to Clownboat in post #47]

That doesn't follow.

If God inspires me to write a poem, it doesn't mean God writes the poem through me. It means he moves me to write a poem about a topic. I choose the words I write. I choose how I tell the story for whatever topic I was moved to write about. I am human, so my story will not be perfect. I will use my understandings I have now, which seems correct now as science is, but perhaps 2000 years from now, humans will laugh at our science for how primitive and wrong it was. They might say, hey this guy was very wrong about science.

But they missed the point of my story. It was not to teach science. I used our present scientific understanding of the world and included that in my story. My story was to teach a moral lesson, let's say. The fact that my present scientific understanding of the world turns out to be totally wrong has nothing to do with if God inspired me to write the story.
Then it seems, you reduce the Bible to nothing more than a poem written by a human that credits a god, drugs or love for the inspiration.

If that is all the Bible is, then we really have nothing to discuss as no poem you write, no matter who you credit the inspiration to would actually have an effect on our eternal soul. So perhaps the Bible also has no actual impact on our eternal souls? That would make sense and it really matters not who or what you credit the inspiration to in that case... it is like a poem.

I was coming at this from the perspective the the Bible is special (a God being behind it in some way), not just some ordinary work like a poem inspired by a DMT trip or credited to a lover or a god for inspiration.
I think you misunderstood me. I don't mean inspired in the sense that I see a sunset and was inspired. I mean that God actually moves me to write a story. God divinely moves me to write a story about a boy who cries wolf one too many times and then dies when a wolf really comes because no one believes him. I know that I am not writing history. I am fully aware that I am writing a story about a boy that probably never existed, but I know God is moving me to write the story because the story will help people have a better understanding of the world and our relation to it.

If this story became popular and copied a lot by scribes and passed around and taught because it is beneficial, and then later it is collected into a collection of writings from men moved by God, it would be scripture. That doesn't mean the boy who cried wolf was a historical person. God did not move me to write a historical account but to tell a story that instills morals.

The bible is a collection of many different kinds of writings. Some are stories like the boy who cried wolf, such as Job. Some are eye witness accounts, which is more like history such as the Gospels. Some are letters to correct the churches that were making mistakes like Romans, although that letter was also to tell them what they were doing right and to continue doing so.

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Re: The Death of Judas (Both Versions of the Story)

Post #54

Post by Clownboat »

AquinasForGod wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:09 pm I think you misunderstood me. I don't mean inspired in the sense that I see a sunset and was inspired. I mean that God actually moves me to write a story. God divinely moves me to write a story about a boy who cries wolf one too many times and then dies when a wolf really comes because no one believes him. I know that I am not writing history. I am fully aware that I am writing a story about a boy that probably never existed, but I know God is moving me to write the story because the story will help people have a better understanding of the world and our relation to it.
God actually moving you to write a story is no different then a being moved by a DMT trip, or by love to write a story.

The god no more helps you pen the story anymore than being inspired by love has love helping you pen the story. In the end, you penned the writing. Claim a god moved you, or a DMT trip or love moved you to write it and it matters not as to where you assign inspiration.

However! If a god assisted with the penning for example, as in affecting what you write down, I trust I would need nothing more than to read your story to realize that there was more than just a human at work.

So in your analogy, did the god affect what was written, or was it just a source you credit to moving you to write the said piece?
If this story became popular and copied a lot by scribes and passed around and taught because it is beneficial, and then later it is collected into a collection of writings from men moved by God, it would be scripture. That doesn't mean the boy who cried wolf was a historical person. God did not move me to write a historical account but to tell a story that instills morals.
Ok.
The bible is a collection of many different kinds of writings. Some are stories like the boy who cried wolf, such as Job. Some are eye witness accounts, which is more like history such as the Gospels. Some are letters to correct the churches that were making mistakes like Romans, although that letter was also to tell them what they were doing right and to continue doing so.
This is all true. Now if only we read these stories and could pick up on places where there was a god involved actually affecting the writings. What we have is all to human to be considered as affected by a god in any way IMO. Sure, the authors might claim a god moved them to write it, but it is still fully human it seems.

I trust you have read the Bible...
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I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

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Re: The Death of Judas (Both Versions of the Story)

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Post by brunumb »

AquinasForGod wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:53 pm If God inspires me to write a poem, it doesn't mean God writes the poem through me. It means he moves me to write a poem about a topic. I choose the words I write. I choose how I tell the story for whatever topic I was moved to write about.
So what you wrote should not be considered the Word of God. It's your word and God essentially just tapped you on the shoulder and said "Get on with your work".
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Re: The Death of Judas (Both Versions of the Story)

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

AquinasForGod wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:09 pm
Clownboat wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:03 pm
AquinasForGod wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:53 pm [Replying to Clownboat in post #47]

That doesn't follow.

If God inspires me to write a poem, it doesn't mean God writes the poem through me. It means he moves me to write a poem about a topic. I choose the words I write. I choose how I tell the story for whatever topic I was moved to write about. I am human, so my story will not be perfect. I will use my understandings I have now, which seems correct now as science is, but perhaps 2000 years from now, humans will laugh at our science for how primitive and wrong it was. They might say, hey this guy was very wrong about science.

But they missed the point of my story. It was not to teach science. I used our present scientific understanding of the world and included that in my story. My story was to teach a moral lesson, let's say. The fact that my present scientific understanding of the world turns out to be totally wrong has nothing to do with if God inspired me to write the story.
Then it seems, you reduce the Bible to nothing more than a poem written by a human that credits a god, drugs or love for the inspiration.

If that is all the Bible is, then we really have nothing to discuss as no poem you write, no matter who you credit the inspiration to would actually have an effect on our eternal soul. So perhaps the Bible also has no actual impact on our eternal souls? That would make sense and it really matters not who or what you credit the inspiration to in that case... it is like a poem.

I was coming at this from the perspective the the Bible is special (a God being behind it in some way), not just some ordinary work like a poem inspired by a DMT trip or credited to a lover or a god for inspiration.
I think you misunderstood me. I don't mean inspired in the sense that I see a sunset and was inspired. I mean that God actually moves me to write a story. God divinely moves me to write a story about a boy who cries wolf one too many times and then dies when a wolf really comes because no one believes him. I know that I am not writing history. I am fully aware that I am writing a story about a boy that probably never existed, but I know God is moving me to write the story because the story will help people have a better understanding of the world and our relation to it.

If this story became popular and copied a lot by scribes and passed around and taught because it is beneficial, and then later it is collected into a collection of writings from men moved by God, it would be scripture. That doesn't mean the boy who cried wolf was a historical person. God did not move me to write a historical account but to tell a story that instills morals.

The bible is a collection of many different kinds of writings. Some are stories like the boy who cried wolf, such as Job. Some are eye witness accounts, which is more like history such as the Gospels. Some are letters to correct the churches that were making mistakes like Romans, although that letter was also to tell them what they were doing right and to continue doing so.
Why should we believe that for a moment? Aside denial and fiddling, Much of the Bible is wrong. So why should we credit that to a god, rather than to human inspiration? Do you suppose that my atheist polemics are inspired by God? Well I suppose they might with the broad and vague 'all part of God's plan' Like the human history that frankly looks just like there is no god there.

So - why on earth should we even consider there is a god there, never mind which one? Or perhaps, even if you believe it, why on earth should your claim convince anyone who didn't already have Faith in it? Because I'm sure that most religious apologetics are providing excuses for the believer to bat away problems or indeed hard evidence. It is never going to persuade anyone with a facility for asking questions. But I have a Theory.... :roll: ... The the Believer supposes that 92% of the world are believers, and the Bible - apologist just needs to provide them with Faithbased denial, and they will stay Theists.

I could be wrong, but I think that there is incremental doubt...from (e.g) Bible literalism, to Cherry picking and New Covenanters ("Get your angry mob pitchforks here!")




and to Caffeteria Christianity ( Humanist morals but crediting God), UR and deciding that Hell doesn't exist (Did God agree to this?), Deism, Irreligious theism and ... "Hell! Ah aint no Ay - theeist; ah jest don't berleeive in no god!"

I've seen a few deconverts - not many, but some - but only one convert and that to First cause, not to religion.

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Re: The Death of Judas (Both Versions of the Story)

Post #57

Post by The Nice Centurion »

There is at least one another third death Account of Judas. Not from the bible, but from earlier bishop Papias:
https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/200 ... -laodicea/

Perhaps Judas was a mutant who was unable to really die?

OR there was not one, but three Judas. Secret Triplets perhaps.
Unknown to Jesus and apostles they they continually changed playing apostle Judas.
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Re: The Death of Judas (Both Versions of the Story)

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:31 pm There is at least one another third death Account of Judas. Not from the bible, but from earlier bishop Papias:
https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/200 ... -laodicea/

Perhaps Judas was a mutant who was unable to really die?

OR there was not one, but three Judas. Secret Triplets perhaps.
Unknown to Jesus and apostles they they continually changed playing apostle Judas.
The figure of Judas rather intrigues me. Even without my idea that Paul wrote this idea that Jesus was 'handed over' to the powers of darkness (by God as part of the plan of redemption) and that is translated as 'betrayed'. So, when the Christian version of the Jesus - story was written a betrayer had to be found. Who better than one of his own circle? And it has been noted that Judas sounds most like 'The Jew'. One message of the gospels is that the Jews were to blame for Jesus'death.

Apart from that, it looks like two Judases, one a son of Simon the Canaanite (Galilean zealot) and the other (Judas not Iscariot) also a son of Simon, as i recall, meaning the son of Peter. My memory may be at fault there and of course different gospels may have different information. But I note a development of the character and not in a good way. From Satan entering into Judas (Luke) to ensure that the redemption of man happened (acting as God's agent yet again) to doing it just out of greed, John accusing Judas of having his hand in the till, as though nobody would have known it. The development from the disciples protesting the waste of the bottle of ointment to it just being Judas doing it. The fiddling and adaptation with the intent of making Judas look bad is all through the gospels and the two (contradictory) accounts of the death of Judas is just more of it and as blatantly invented. It was only to be expected that other stories laying it on even more thick would appear as in the one you quote from Papias.

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