How do they KNOW?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:09 am

There is scant evidence in the Gospels that Jesus was sinless and perfect. By contrast, Jesus perfection is explicitly claimed by the authors of the Epistles.

For debate, how could they possibly know that Jesus was perfect, and never sinned in thought, word or deed? Were they witnesses to his mind? And to his every word and deed from childhood?

Isn't the claim that Jesus was perfect and sinless simply theological speculation?

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:19 pm

Elijah John wrote: Indeed, "totally sinful" would mean that people never ever do good, always sin and do evil, and never love or have compassion.

No, it means that even the good we do is tainted with sin. Even if we do good things, there is always some measure of pride and self-righteousness and self-glorification involved. We cannot help but have some degree of these things in everything -- everything -- we do, be it seen as "good" or "bad" by ourselves or others.

Elijah John wrote: "Totally sinful, and totally depraved" are notions that do not square with reality.

They most certainly do.

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:16 pm

PinSeeker wrote: [Replying to post 84 by Avoice]

Ahhhh, so many words and so little understanding... Come on, Avoice, you can do better than that, can't you? No, just about every post from you so reminds me of MacBeth's speech, "Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow" (Shakespeare). This is no exception.

Moderator Comment

Please address what is debated and refrain from making personal comments and slurs against other members. This adds nothing to the debate at all.

Please review the Rules.

______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:21 pm

PinSeeker wrote:
Elijah John wrote: Indeed, "totally sinful" would mean that people never ever do good, always sin and do evil, and never love or have compassion.
No, it means that even the good we do is tainted with sin. Even if we do good things, there is always some measure of pride and self-righteousness and self-glorification involved. We cannot help but have some degree of these things in everything -- everything -- we do, be it seen as "good" or "bad" by ourselves or others.

Elijah John wrote: "Totally sinful, and totally depraved" are notions that do not square with reality.
They most certainly do.

Many people give anonymously as Jesus commanded in the Sermon on the Mount. How is secret giving tainted? When one gives and wants no reward except for the good of the other, and to please God.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:34 pm

Elijah John wrote: Many people give anonymously as Jesus commanded in the Sermon on the Mount. How is secret giving tainted? When one gives and wants no reward except for the good of the other, and to please God.

In and of itself, that's a good thing. But if that person is honest with himself or herself and self-reflective enough and humble, he/she will admit that on some level, he/she:

* feels good about himself/herself
* feels self-justified as a Christian
* feels he or she is "better" than other people and even other Christians who don't tithe
* feels less than cheerful about having given up what he or she feels is rightfully his/hers.

We could add to this list, but you get the point, I'm sure. All of the above are products of idolatry, having false gods, pride, resentment, sinful jealousy, and the like.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:41 am

PinSeeker wrote:
Elijah John wrote: Many people give anonymously as Jesus commanded in the Sermon on the Mount. How is secret giving tainted? When one gives and wants no reward except for the good of the other, and to please God.
In and of itself, that's a good thing. But if that person is honest with himself or herself and self-reflective enough and humble, he/she will admit that on some level, he/she:

* feels good about himself/herself

That is not sin.

* feels self-justified as a Christian

That's a negative way to put it. How bout "feels happy they are doing God's will" instead?

* feels he or she is "better" than other people and even other Christians who don't tithe

I wasn't even talking about "tithing" and I don't think Jesus was either. But about helping, and giving directly to those in need. The Church doesn't mediate all giving, nor should it. There are other ways, and arguably more untainted ways.

* feels less than cheerful about having given up what he or she feels is rightfully his/hers.[/list]
We could add to this list, but you get the point, I'm sure. All of the above are products of idolatry, having false gods, pride, resentment, sinful jealousy, and the like.

Wow, that's really stretching it. "Idolatry"? Are all sins "idolatry" in the Evangelical/ Fundamentalist mindset? Idolatry is specifically worshiping false gods. The other sins you listed are sins, but not the sin of idolatry. And besides, many people give cheerfully and without resentment.

Perhaps resentment is often borne from ministers who get wealthy from their struggling congregant's tithes.

So no, people may not be perfect, but they are not depraved. It is the wicked exception who are depraved and actually evil. Most people are decent and of good will.

Have you heard the expression "common decency"? It may not be in the Bible, but it more accurately describes reality.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:00 am

[Replying to post 93 by PinSeeker]

So let's get back to the topic. How does anyone know that Jesus was perfect and sinless, beyond "the Bible tells me so"?

Was anyone besides Jesus and God witness to his every thought, word or deed? From birth?

How could Paul or the unknown author of Hebrews possibly know? They couldn't. But their blood redemption theology depends on it, so they made him so.

Waterfall · Post by **Waterfall** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:37 pm

[Replying to post 83 by PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 89 by Waterfall]

Hey PinSeeker

Maybe I am too mush sometimes. Forgive me for that. There is a good way of communicating with other people. I understand that. Today I have been out playing petanque and have had something to drink. It has been a good day for me. But I would like to continue our conversation. When I drink I like to listen to music...this is just great in my opinion:

When I was young I liked to dance. Now I have become old

and my body is not what it used to be

but I like to see other people do their thing.

You said this:

Our natural condition, as human beings, is totally sinful. In this way, the natural person, from birth, is spiritually dead. It may sound harsh and possibly "over the top," but it's true.

And it do sound harsh and so on.

I am thinking that there might be a topic here for Sadhguru...the nature of man...it is an open topic or what do you think?

You also said this:

Jesus died because of sin. Yours, mine, all sin. In that way, we are all responsible for His death. This was to satisfy God's justice on our behalf. Imagine that. Because God SO LOVED the world, He gave His only son. Himself, in the Person of Jesus. For us. It would seem that we would all respond to that, but unfortunately, some will not. My advice to you is to not be one of those who do not.

I guess you are trinitarian? And that is alright with me. You have your reasons for that. But did Jesus die because of "me" stealing a piece of cake from him?

The story about the fig tree is...well...something I will think about from time to time. Maybe I will find me a church with a Bible class. But I also have to read Srimad Bhagavatam. Something I have said that I would do. At least the first book in the serie. I would like to become a better thinker and communicator. This is just me trying to do that. And as I have said...I have not been God's best child. I have a past and it is not all that pretty. But I can't change it. Just learn from it and say...sorry.

Now I will drink some more beers and relax and...well...we will see...hmm...there should be a beer glass in here - cheers

Best regards or namaste

Waterfall · Post by **Waterfall** » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:32 pm

[Replying to post 96 by Waterfall]

Dear PinSeeker

You are missing a lot because you can't understand danish:

http://www.trosfrihed.dk/

Great things are going on here

Now I am drunk and the only thing I can think of is music:

This is just great but what about Divine Insight? Drop of love? If you are reading this Divine Insight then please come with this song ones more - thank you.

Your friend forever

Waterfall