How do we define the umpardonable sin?

[marco]

In Matthew 12:31 we have: “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.�

Was Jesus just being dramatic here, trying to frighten his listeners? What on earth is "blasphemy against the Spirit"? Did Jesus, somewhere, elaborate on this dramatic statement?


And in what way is such blasphemy worse than, say, mass murder?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 130 by PinSeeker]

The wages of sin is death.

Death is an everlasting punishment.

It's so simple!

[PinSeeker]

The wages of sin is death.

Agree.

Death is an everlasting punishment.

Agree.

It's so simple!

Well, yes and no. It's not hard to understand, but it's just not simplistic, as you make it out to be.

Grace and peace to you.

[marco]

And in what way is such blasphemy worse than, say, mass murder?

To most reasonable people, eternal punishment is absurdly unjust. It is not possible to label God merciful and make him the author of eternal punishment.


But it is further problematic to suppose there is some sin that God refuses to pardon. Jesus did God no favours by making this odd suggestion.

[Donray]

Christians act like there are two gods. The god of the old testament and the god of the new testament. But then they want to only have one god. Accordingly god never changes so the current is still a sadistic murder.

They (the Christians) seem to belive god changes over time. But how would something that has existed for infinity change in what would be a split second of time???? It would not.

The god of bible is a sadistic murderer.

https://www.vocativ.com/news/309748/all ... index.html

[myth-one.com]

And in what way is such blasphemy worse than, say, mass murder?

To most reasonable people, eternal punishment is absurdly unjust.

Yes, and it's sad that it's "most" and not "all!"

It is not possible to label God merciful and make him the author of eternal punishment.

I disagree with your wording on that statement.

I would say:

"It is not possible to label God merciful and make him the author of eternal torment."

The punishment of everlasting death can be a blessing.

For example, we sometimes euthanize pets whom we love dearly. Ant it can be a true statement that we did it out of mercy!

With that one exception, I totally agree!

It's sad and somewhat pathetic to see those futilely defending that "God is Love" while He condones everlasting conscious torment for most of mankind.

But it is further problematic to suppose there is some sin that God refuses to pardon. Jesus did God no favours by making this odd suggestion.

The unpardonable sin is now a moot point.

Under the Old Testament covenant, man was dependent on keeping the commandments of God to attain everlasting life.

Under the New Testament covenant, one must believe in Jesus as his or her Savior to gain everlasting life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

"Whosoever" refers to any human -- including those who commit the unpardonable sin.

Under the New Testament man came under grace and not the law:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

Good works earned one salvation under the Old Testament. That is, if a person never violated any of God's laws, he gained eternal life.

After Jesus died for us, we fell under the grace of Jesus Christ for our salvation, not our works to fulfill the law. So sin does not control our salvation:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Thus, the "unpardonable sin" no longer separates one from salvation.

It is still unpardonable, but being sinless no longer saves us anyway.

[PinSeeker]

Christians act like there are two gods. The god of the old testament and the god of the new testament. ... They (the Christians) seem to believe god changes over time. But how would something that has existed for infinity change in what would be a split second of time???? It would not.

That's an EXCELLENT point. Yes, dispensational Christians do believe that, in error. I am most assuredly in the camp that any dispensational understanding of the Bible is very wrong. Yes, Don, this is an excellent point.

The god of bible is a sadistic murderer.

Well no, as the Creator and Giver of life, He has authority over it, that's all (heh, heh... "that's all," is if that's no big deal... ). But you're welcome to your opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

[marco]

The god of bible is a sadistic murderer.

Well no, as the Creator and Giver of life, He has authority over it, that's all (heh, heh... "that's all," is if that's no big deal... ). But you're welcome to your opinion.

What father gives his son a stone when he asks for bread? What father supervises the sadistic trials of the pious Job, and allows his children to be killed? What father creates life and shortly after throws his creations out of the home he offered them? What father leads his faithful son from his own destructive acts, and then slays his wife in front of him? What father fulminates against babies and terrorises the children who flee helpless before his tides?

This being is brutal, savage, sadistic if words have not to lose the meaning we give them. We must be thankful that Yahweh is just the creation of savage minds, else today he would still break hearts.

Is it a sin to detest this monster? Or should we applaud man's dark creativity?

[ttruscott]

To most reasonable people, eternal punishment is absurdly unjust. It is not possible to label God merciful and make him the author of eternal punishment.

Of course it is...I do it here repeatedly. All the following IFs are ordinary beliefs of ordinary Christians though maybe not all Christians...
IF we were created as eternally self and other aware spirits and
IF we were all created with a free will and
IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and
IF some of HIS creation chose to sin the unforgivable sin and
IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then
IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them from HIS heavenly reality,
THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven.

By their own free will choice to reject HIM they have put themselves outside of HIS mercy for ever or free will is meaningless. This syllogism proves that GOD's mercy cannot mitigate the self chosen fate of some sinners who rejected HIS meddling in their affairs even if to save them from hell.

But it is further problematic to suppose there is some sin that God refuses to pardon. Jesus did God no favours by making this odd suggestion.

The PARDON for sin is not magic nor arbitrary. It does not lie with HIM in HIS desire to see men saved but in legal and personal requirements.

The person pardoned must first be covered by the legal payment of the fee of death, in this case by their faith in the Christ as their saviour from sin by their faith in Him. Then from a great feeling of guilt they must also truly repent, turn from their old ways and only follow righteousness.

The problem with this is that once a person has chosen sin his nature changes as he becomes addicted to sin and evil. From the first sin no one can break this addiction without GOD's help. Therefore if the first sin is a sincere rejection of GOD's help with a full and freely given commitment to the belief HE is NOT GOD but a liar, coupled the rejection of the Son as the saviour from evil, there is no surcease to their addiction, ie, they are unforgivable. They will never truly repent but rather in anger will always accuse GOD of failing them. By their new nature which loves sin more than the truth, they will always repress the truth they know, the truth they have clearly seen for themsleves, and replace it with the lie that YHWH is not GOD and there is no need for a saviour.

A follow up topic could be the expansion of the idea of the necessity for all free will decisions to be perfectly sacrosanct.

[ttruscott]

"Whosoever" refers to any human -- including those who commit the unpardonable sin.

They are unpardonable because they cannot by their nature as addicted to the pleasures and profits of evil ever believe or have a real faith in Jesus as their saviour. Sure, if they could have such a belief there is no unforgivable sin but if their sin was rejecting Him as saviour then there is no way He can be their saviour and pardon them against their will to enable them to believe.

[myth-one.com]

Myth-One.com claims the fate of nonbelievers is simple:

The wages of sin is death.

Death is an everlasting punishment.

It's so simple!

PinSetter claims that just ain't so:

It's not hard to understand, but it's just not simplistic, as you make it out to be.

There is an explanation as to why PinSetter does not find the fate of nonbelievers to be easily understandable:

The scriptures repeatedly state that mankind can perish.

But PinSetter believes a part of all mankind will live forever -- his spirit or soul. This false belief is what complicates the Gospel for PinSetter and others.

Here's why:

If man lives forever, then "death" in the Bible cannot really mean death. Therefore, it must be redefined to have some other meaning. One of the most common is that death means "eternal separation from God."

And if man lives forever, he must live somewhere.

So the immortal souls of believers immediately go to heaven for eternity upon the death of their physical bodies.

While the immortal souls of nonbelievers go immediately to hell for eternity when their physical bodies die.

But is it fair that both believers and nonbelievers have everlasting life without any physical punishment for the nonbelievers?

That problem is solved at the resurrection, when man's eternal soul is merged back with his resurrected eternal physical body.

Now the nonbelievers can experience physical torment in the lake of fire day and night for ever and ever.

Ahhhhh, that is now a complete and perfect system!

And definitely not simplistic, as is the biblical explanation!