Christian testament admits to lying? What lie?

[Avoice]

We see below that the writer of Romans admits to lying.

Lied about what?

How has the lie made the truth of God abound?

Before you read the confession below consider the old scenario about a person who is always accused of cheating but has never cheated. So after being accused the person says to themself: well, i will prove them right. Then the person goes out and cheats. "Accuse me of cheating? Very well, ill prove you right" if you are proving they speak the truth then how can they be angry at you. Know what i mean?

Now keep that in mind and read this

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? [font=Impact][/font]

Sounds to me like the writer is saying:
God says man is a liar huh? Very well then! I will prove him right and lie. If I prove what he says is true about nan being a liar by me lying how can i be judged as a sinner?

I say this because he just gets done telling us how God says man is s liar. And that let it be true.

[Difflugia]

We see below that the writer of Romans admits to lying.

Lied about what?

How has the lie made the truth of God abound?

...

Sounds to me like the writer is saying:
God says man is a liar huh? Very well then! I will prove him right and lie. If I prove what he says is true about nan being a liar by me lying how can i be judged as a sinner?

I say this because he just gets done telling us how God says man is s liar. And that let it be true.

This is all part of Paul's defense of his doctrine of salvation by grace. Romans 6:1-2 is the epitome of this part of the argument:

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Paul is saying that God is absolutely true, righteous, just, and gracious. Humanity's lies, unrighteousness, and lack of justice make it obvious just how perfect God is. When God forgives all that stuff, it makes it obvious just how gracious God is. Similarly, when those under the Jewish Law fail to keep the Law, it's not God's failure, but is instead a demonstration of how righteous God is compared to miserable humans.

So should we do all that stuff intentionally so that everyone can see how good God is? No, of course not, Paul says; that's stupid. Even though God is able to use my sinful nature for His own glory, that doesn't mean that I'm justified in doing those things. Even if God uses my lies and sins to His greater glory, I still have no valid complaints when He smacks me around for it, nor can I boast about how gracious I made God look by giving him such a wretched sinner to pour out His grace upon by not smacking me around.

[1213]

We see below that the writer of Romans admits to lying.
....

By what I see, he is asking a question, not admitting a lie.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 3 by 1213]

He IS ADMITTING to lying. He is saying that if the truth of God abounds by his lie then why is he the bad guy. Paraphrasing.

The writer just finished telling us that God says man is a liar. THEN the writer comments how his lie makes Gods truth abound. In other words by lying he proves God speaks the truth. If he didn't mean that then why mention God calling man a liar? This us exactly why he admits to lying after telling us how God calls us liars.

He doesn't say IF HE LIED. He says IF his lie makes the truth abound then WHY should he be judged a sinner.

The question isnt about whether he lied. He is saying that he makes the truth abound by his lie so why call him a sinner.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by Avoice]

Several points need to be observed:

We may first note that Paul himself does not intend for the passage to be taken strictly literal in the manner which the OP reads it: 3:5 "I speak in a human way" (ESV). This may be a cautious defense of impious rhetoric: for a Jew the mere suggestion that God is unrighteous would be anathema. However, it may also reflect that Paul is representing someone else's argument: namely, Jews who have not accepted the Christ. 3:8 supports this interpretation.

Next, Terms like "lie" in Greek need not mean what we mean by it in English: an intended distortion of what we know to be true. A lie could be merely a false statement, even if believed: cf. 1 John 4:20; 5:10.

Next, phrases like "God's righteousness" require serious study. In Romans it is most certainly not his own moral perfection (obviously Paul would not deny that) but rather his commitment to saving the entire world, Jews and Greeks (for Paul, these were the main divisions of humanity at the time).

For whatever reason, Paul believes that the lack of Jewish followers of the Jesus movement has allowed for God to bring in Gentiles (why the two missions cannot work equally well is rather a puzzle): that is how the "lie" and "unfaithfulness" of chapter 3 contributes to the righteousness of God.

I recognize the OP was made in an "apologetics" subforum, and so probably no one really cares for explanations--attack attack attack, right? But maybe someone out there actually cares about the results of intense study.

[tam]

Peace to you,

We see below that the writer of Romans admits to lying.

Lied about what?

How has the lie made the truth of God abound?

Before you read the confession below consider the old scenario about a person who is always accused of cheating but has never cheated. So after being accused the person says to themself: well, i will prove them right. Then the person goes out and cheats. "Accuse me of cheating? Very well, ill prove you right" if you are proving they speak the truth then how can they be angry at you. Know what i mean?

Now keep that in mind and read this

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? [font=Impact][/font]

Sounds to me like the writer is saying:
God says man is a liar huh? Very well then! I will prove him right and lie. If I prove what he says is true about nan being a liar by me lying how can i be judged as a sinner?

I say this because he just gets done telling us how God says man is s liar. And that let it be true.

Paul is not suggesting that anyone should go out and lie - nor is he suggesting that God would be unfair to judge him as a sinner if he did lie. He is using a human argument - but it is not HIS argument. He is not supporting this argument; he is opposing it.

We can see this if we read the next verse that you did not quote:

Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result�?



He is most definitely not saying that anyone (himself included) should go out and lie.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 5 by liamconnor]

We may first note that Paul himself does not intend for the passage to be taken strictly literal in the manner which the OP reads it: 3:5 "I speak in a human way" (ESV). This may be a cautious defense of impious rhetoric: for a Jew the mere suggestion that God is unrighteous would be anathema. However, it may also reflect that Paul is representing someone else's argument: namely, Jews who have not accepted the Christ. 3:8 supports this interpretation.

Next, Terms like "lie" in Greek need not mean what we mean by it in English: an intended distortion of what we know to be true. A lie could be merely a false statement, even if believed: cf. 1 John 4:20; 5:10.

I think you explained this much better than I did, and thank you for bringing out the fact about a lie being a false statement. So that a person can lie intentionally OR unintentionally.




Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Avoice]

Its never to be taken literally when you dont like it. It could mean this or it could mean that. He might be saying this or possibly that. But hes not saying what he is really saying. Ya' know..maybe you are right. Everything he says means something else. When he speaks of Jesus he probably meant someone else. And being saved doesn't mean actually saved either.
As far as that goes even Jesus didnt mean THIS GENERATION shall not pass. No...he really didnt mean that generation standing there that day even though he did say standing there. He didnt mean exactly what he said. Because if he did it would prove him fslse. Sooooo....that is a metaphor too.
Yeah, I see the truth of Christianity. Or rather how Christians come to their truth. Its whatever they want it to be.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 1 by Avoice]

You need to read the verses around it in the chapter instead of taking that verse out of context. He is actually arguing against that type of reasoning.