Rational and civil debate between members of all religions and world views

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Reply to topic
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:20 am
Reply
When was the bible corrupted?

Like this post
I have discussed scripture with a lot of Muslims who tell me that while the bible is indeed the result of divine revelation but that it was corrupted. My question is:


1 Is this an "official" teaching of Islam?
and

2 About when (which century) did this corruption begin for...

a) the hebrew bible
b) the Christian Greek Scriptures

references would be greatly appreciated.

JW

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:52 am
Reply

Like this post
I think it would be hard to pin down an exact date. It happened probably over a period of time. A few examples I can think of that probably helped corrupt it are that languages don't translate very well over into another. Also, we need to consider that there was no printing press and that it was handwritten for a long time. The last thing I can think of is that there is the possibility of someone who wrote it might have created his own new idea of a scripture. It is hard to know anything though.

I cant speak for Islam, but Mormons believe this also and I thought that this would be helpful.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:39 pm
Reply

Like this post
mormon boy51 wrote:
I think it would be hard to pin down an exact date. It happened probably over a period of time. A few examples I can think of that probably helped corrupt it are that languages don't translate very well over into another. Also, we need to consider that there was no printing press and that it was handwritten for a long time. The last thing I can think of is that there is the possibility of someone who wrote it might have created his own new idea of a scripture. It is hard to know anything though.

I cant speak for Islam, but Mormons believe this also and I thought that this would be helpful.


Thank you, I'm more looking for from the Islamic point of view but I appreciate your input.








LDS So for Mormons the corruption of Scripture started at the time of the first translation and/or the first handwritten copy?

*first translation (Hebrew Bible) would be about 3rd century - LXX
*first copy would probably be pretty much immediately they were written

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:44 pm
Reply

Like this post
JehovahsWitness wrote:
mormon boy51 wrote:
I think it would be hard to pin down an exact date. It happened probably over a period of time. A few examples I can think of that probably helped corrupt it are that languages don't translate very well over into another. Also, we need to consider that there was no printing press and that it was handwritten for a long time. The last thing I can think of is that there is the possibility of someone who wrote it might have created his own new idea of a scripture. It is hard to know anything though.

I cant speak for Islam, but Mormons believe this also and I thought that this would be helpful.


Thank you, I'm more looking for from the Islamic point of view but I appreciate your input.

Yeah, I thought I would just throw out a couple possibilities.

Quote:
LDS So for Mormons the corruption of Scripture started at the time of the first translation and/or the first handwritten copy?

*first translation (Hebrew Bible) would be about 3rd century - LXX
*first copy would probably be pretty much immediately they were written

Well, every belief differs. So this is speculation not official LDS teachings. I was just throwing out something to get this going. Hopefully a Muslim could jump in now.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:58 am
Reply

Like this post
Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem

Hello, JehovahsWitness


JehovahsWitness wrote:

2 About when (which century) did this corruption begin for...

a) the hebrew bible
b) the Christian Greek Scriptures

This is a quote from the "FAQ" thread:
Quote:
1. How can you prove the Bible is corrupted?

There is confusion not only within non-muslims; but also muslims that think the Quran sees the Bible as a "partial" revelation; and that it was corrupted over time.
[1]It is a misconception that Muslims believe the Bible ‘became’ corrupted. Nor does the Muslim believe the Torah and Gospel are corrupt. These revelations of God that existed prior to any so called inscription were pure. On the contrary, we don’t take the stance that the New Testament eventually was fabricated, even though it is possible and probable that it did deteriorate from its original also, rather, it is more adequate to say that the New Testament upon its very and initial inscription by Luke, by Matthew, by John, and by Paul, etc. was tainted by the hearsay, perceptions, beliefs, opinions, and interpretations of the author. Therefore, erroneous of preservation, the New Testament writings were always fabricated from the very initial inscription. The “Gospels According To” are not the words of God – they are the perceptions of men.

Source 1



An objective fact, that many Christians proudly 'boast' about, is that there are 24,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. But would you be surprised if i told you, there is not a SINGLE identical pair. Yup, not ONE. So what we have is, 24,000 different "Words of God", each differing with a word or two, a paragraph or two, a missing sentence, a human interpolation etc... from one another. Thus, even if muslims believed that the disciples of Jesus authored the Canonical Gospels(Which we definitely dont) (Which modern scholarly skepticism debunks)[e.g. the Gospel of John was written 90years after the disappearance of Jesus Christ], there would be enough tangible evidence to reject the New Testament in complete totality.


Quote:

1 Is this an "official" teaching of Islam?

I dont claim to speak for every muslim, but i think i can honestly speak for mainstream muslims (ahlus sunnah wal jamaah) which make up 90% of muslims.

Its no closed secret, that the Bible has been altered & played around with. Infact, the doctrinal insertions are a joke.
Ahmed Deedat wrote:

The verse in the Bible which is closest to "Trinity" and is often quoted by Christian missionaries is the first Epistle of John, chapter 5 verse no 7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one."

In the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (R.S.V.) revised by 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different co-operating denominations, this verse which is the keystone of the Christian faith has been removed as an interpolation, as a fabrication and as a concoction. It has not been expunged from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible by the Muslims or by non-Christian scholars, but by 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different cooperating denominations as an interpolation, as a concoction and as a fabrication because this verse does not exist in the original manuscript.


The word "Begotten" is also removed from the entire New Testament as a "Concoction" & a "Fabrication" by the RSV, as it does not exist in the most ancient Greek manuscripts, another blatant sign the Christian scriptures have decayed from purity, thus they need a pure revelation from God without the artificial interpolations, which is none other than the Quran.


Quote:

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)

And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

(Quran Chapter 3, verse 3, and Chapter 5, verses 46-47)


The official teaching of Islam is, the Bible (The collection of written texts) contains traces of Gods word (Which were 'Oral' in their pure forms), thus muslims must respect the Bible.


If you had a cup of milk, white & absolutely pure, wouldn't you crave to drink it?
Now, what if i put a tiny drop of urine in that cup of milk, would you still want to drink it? Indeed that tiny drop destroys & corrupts the pureness of that milk. The same way, the human interpolations utterly destroy the pureness of Gods Word.

The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us:
Quote:

The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.


*Jesus Christ in Islam*

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:33 am
Reply

Like this post
Murad wrote:


This is a quote from the "FAQ" thread:
Quote:
1. How can you prove the Bible is corrupted?

There is confusion not only within non-muslims; but also muslims that think the Quran sees the Bible as a "partial" revelation; and that it was corrupted over time.
[1]It is a misconception that Muslims believe the Bible ‘became’ corrupted. Nor does the Muslim believe the Torah and Gospel are corrupt. These revelations of God that existed prior to any so called inscription were pure. On the contrary, we don’t take the stance that the New Testament eventually was fabricated, even though it is possible and probable that it did deteriorate from its original also, rather, it is more adequate to say that the New Testament upon its very and initial inscription by Luke, by Matthew, by John, and by Paul, etc. was tainted by the hearsay, perceptions, beliefs, opinions, and interpretations of the author. Therefore, erroneous of preservation, the New Testament writings were always fabricated from the very initial inscription. The “Gospels According To” are not the words of God – they are the perceptions of men.

Source 1


So to CLARIFY

a) There is no central governing authority (human) that transmits the above belief (Question: Do Muslims have a centralized universally recognised authority that makes definitive declarations in relation to the faith? Each individual Muslim comes to their own conclusions on the matter based on what they learn on the subject.

b) These revelations [The Torah and the Gospels] that existed prior to any so called inscription were "pure" when they were intitially receivd from God.

c) They were remained pure until they were written down. ["New Testament [was tainted] upon its... and initial inscription"]


QUESTIONS:

1) Does this principle also apply to the Hebrew bible? (ie When Moses heard the voice of God in the Mountain it was "pure" but when God told him to write the words down and he immediately did 'upon writing it it immediately became "tainted"? When Daniel had his divine dream it was pure but when he woke up and wrote it down that morning it became "tainted"?)

2) Was the word pure from the time Jesus and the Apostles on earth were speaking and teaching until they (The Apostles) first put pen to paper?

3) Is there a verse in the Quran that refers to the gospel writings? What does it say? [references would be appreciated]




Thanks Murad.

JW

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:56 am
Reply

Like this post
Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem

JehovahsWitness wrote:

So to CLARIFY

a) There is no central governing authority (human) that transmits the above belief (Question: Do Muslims have a centralized universally recognised authority that makes definitive declarations in relation to the faith? Each individual Muslim comes to their own conclusions on the matter based on what they learn on the subject.

There are what we call "Islamic Schools of Law" (That deal with Quranic & Sahih Hadith interpretations), & as far as i know, there is not a single School of Law that accepts the Bible's mosaic authorship, or the credibility of the anonymous canonical Gospels, or the Bible as a whole as "The word of God". My belief is what the majority of respected scholars share (e.g. Dr Zakir Naik, Ahmed Deedat, Abdur Rahman Green etc..).

JehovahsWitness wrote:

b) These revelations [The Torah and the Gospels] that existed prior to any so called inscription were "pure" when they were intitially receivd from God.

Absolutely.

JehovahsWitness wrote:

c) They were remained pure until they were written down. ["New Testament [was tainted] upon its... and initial inscription"]

Christians & Jews, as well as biblical scholars disagree with the Mosaic authorship of the Torah, so the Torah of the Bible is not exactly synonymous to the Torah we believe was revealed to Moses. But as i said, despite its unverifiability & anonymous authorship, it can contain traces of Gods Word.

God in the Quran mentions revealing a "Gospel" to Jesus Christ, & him only, not "The Gospel According to [Insert name here]". The Gospel of Jesus was not a book, it was a revelation of knowledge. Jesus did not go around carrying a book in his hand when he was preaching the Gospel right? Thus, we muslims find it incredibly wrong, to associate anonymous & unverifable texts to Jesus Christ, which were written decades after he disappeared...

We believe, the truth about Jesus was not established by councils of ordinary men hundreds of years later, but by another Prophet, who was prophecied & foretold by scripture, this was Muhammad(pbuh).

Do you know, Muhammad was foretold by name in the Bible. (Hint: The English Translation alters the Original Hebrew pronunciation)
If you are interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhazm0UdlTc

JehovahsWitness wrote:

QUESTIONS:

1) Does this principle also apply to the Hebrew bible? (ie When Moses heard the voice of God in the Mountain it was "pure" but when God told him to write the words down and he immediately did 'upon writing it it immediately became "tainted"? When Daniel had his divine dream it was pure but when he woke up and wrote it down that morning it became "tainted"?)

Even some Christian fundamentalists deny Moses authored the Torah. The same rejection is shared by some Jews. Even the 32 Christian Scholars that author the RSV Bible, put the "Five Books of Moses" in speech marks. There is way more evidence/reason to believe Moses did not write the Torah than there is that he did. (e.g. Moses describes his death)


I have no reason, to accuse the Book of Daniel of becoming "tainted", but there is alot of doubt that it remained in its original form, from the moment it was recorded down. Also, its authorship is anonymous, there is absolutely no evidence/reason to link the book back to Prophet Daniel, similarly to the Torah with Moses. Muslims believe in all the scriptures revealed by God, but since their authenticity can be doubted, we only give authoritive relevance to the Quran.
Quote:

Say (O Muhammad), We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them.
[2:136]


JehovahsWitness wrote:

2) Was the word pure from the time Jesus and the Apostles on earth were speaking and teaching until they (The Apostles) first put pen to paper?

We muslims dont consider any word of the disciples "pure" (when compared to a Prophet). For example, the words(Hadiths) of the disciples of Muhammad(such as Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, etc...) are not regarded as "Inspired by God", even though we can verify their authenticity. The only words that are considered pure & 'holy' are those that come straight from the mouth of the prophets (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad etc..)

So to summarise, the words of Jesus were always pure, but he did not author a Gospel, nor did he verify anything that was written about him. Nor did Paul see Jesus personally(he had a vision). & I've biblically proven, that the disciples relied on hearsay, if your interested, heres the link


JehovahsWitness wrote:

3) Is there a verse in the Quran that refers to the gospel writings? What does it say? [references would be appreciated]

The Quran refers to the Gospel of Jesus, which was not a writing, rather as i said, a revelation of divine knowledge.

God describing the Gospel:
Quote:

Subsequent to them, we sent our messengers. We sent Jesus the son of Mary, and we gave him the Injeel (Gospel), and we placed in the hearts of his followers kindness and mercy. But they invented hermitism which we never decreed for them. All we asked them to do was to uphold the commandments approved by GOD. But they did not uphold the message as they should have. Consequently, we gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them were wicked.
[Holy Quran 57:27]



JehovahsWitness wrote:

Thanks Murad.

JW

No Problem. You have asked very good questions.
I also have a question, do you watch/listen to comparitive religion debates?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:29 pm
Reply

Like this post
Murad wrote:
Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem

JehovahsWitness wrote:

So to CLARIFY

a) There is no central governing authority (human) that transmits the above belief (Question: Do Muslims have a centralized universally recognised authority that makes definitive declarations in relation to the faith? Each individual Muslim comes to their own conclusions on the matter based on what they learn on the subject.

There are what we call "Islamic Schools of Law" (That deal with Quranic & Sahih Hadith interpretations), & as far as i know, there is not a single School of Law that accepts the Bible's mosaic authorship, or the credibility of the anonymous canonical Gospels, or the Bible as a whole as "The word of God". My belief is what the majority of respected scholars share (e.g. Dr Zakir Naik, Ahmed Deedat, Abdur Rahman Green etc..).

JehovahsWitness wrote:

b) These revelations [The Torah and the Gospels] that existed prior to any so called inscription were "pure" when they were intitially receivd from God.

Absolutely.

JehovahsWitness wrote:

c) They were remained pure until they were written down. ["New Testament [was tainted] upon its... and initial inscription"]

Christians & Jews, as well as biblical scholars disagree with the Mosaic authorship of the Torah, so the Torah of the Bible is not exactly synonymous to the Torah we believe was revealed to Moses. But as i said, despite its unverifiability & anonymous authorship, it can contain traces of Gods Word.

God in the Quran mentions revealing a "Gospel" to Jesus Christ, & him only, not "The Gospel According to [Insert name here]". The Gospel of Jesus was not a book, it was a revelation of knowledge. Jesus did not go around carrying a book in his hand when he was preaching the Gospel right? Thus, we muslims find it incredibly wrong, to associate anonymous & unverifable texts to Jesus Christ, which were written decades after he disappeared...

We believe, the truth about Jesus was not established by councils of ordinary men hundreds of years later, but by another Prophet, who was prophecied & foretold by scripture, this was Muhammad(pbuh).

Do you know, Muhammad was foretold by name in the Bible. (Hint: The English Translation alters the Original Hebrew pronunciation)
If you are interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhazm0UdlTc

JehovahsWitness wrote:

QUESTIONS:

1) Does this principle also apply to the Hebrew bible? (ie When Moses heard the voice of God in the Mountain it was "pure" but when God told him to write the words down and he immediately did 'upon writing it it immediately became "tainted"? When Daniel had his divine dream it was pure but when he woke up and wrote it down that morning it became "tainted"?)

Even some Christian fundamentalists deny Moses authored the Torah. The same rejection is shared by some Jews. Even the 32 Christian Scholars that author the RSV Bible, put the "Five Books of Moses" in speech marks. There is way more evidence/reason to believe Moses did not write the Torah than there is that he did. (e.g. Moses describes his death)


I have no reason, to accuse the Book of Daniel of becoming "tainted", but there is alot of doubt that it remained in its original form, from the moment it was recorded down. Also, its authorship is anonymous, there is absolutely no evidence/reason to link the book back to Prophet Daniel, similarly to the Torah with Moses. Muslims believe in all the scriptures revealed by God, but since their authenticity can be doubted, we only give authoritive relevance to the Quran.
Quote:

Say (O Muhammad), We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them.
[2:136]


JehovahsWitness wrote:

2) Was the word pure from the time Jesus and the Apostles on earth were speaking and teaching until they (The Apostles) first put pen to paper?

We muslims dont consider any word of the disciples "pure" (when compared to a Prophet). For example, the words(Hadiths) of the disciples of Muhammad(such as Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, etc...) are not regarded as "Inspired by God", even though we can verify their authenticity. The only words that are considered pure & 'holy' are those that come straight from the mouth of the prophets (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad etc..)

So to summarise, the words of Jesus were always pure, but he did not author a Gospel, nor did he verify anything that was written about him. Nor did Paul see Jesus personally(he had a vision). & I've biblically proven, that the disciples relied on hearsay, if your interested, heres the link


JehovahsWitness wrote:

3) Is there a verse in the Quran that refers to the gospel writings? What does it say? [references would be appreciated]

The Quran refers to the Gospel of Jesus, which was not a writing, rather as i said, a revelation of divine knowledge.

God describing the Gospel:
Quote:

Subsequent to them, we sent our messengers. We sent Jesus the son of Mary, and we gave him the Injeel (Gospel), and we placed in the hearts of his followers kindness and mercy. But they invented hermitism which we never decreed for them. All we asked them to do was to uphold the commandments approved by GOD. But they did not uphold the message as they should have. Consequently, we gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them were wicked.
[Holy Quran 57:27]



JehovahsWitness wrote:

Thanks Murad.

JW

No Problem. You have asked very good questions.
I also have a question, do you watch/listen to comparitive religion debates?


okay so this is what I'm getting (correct me if I'm wrong):

    Moses heard the pure word of God. It remained pure until he (or whoever it was) wrote it down.

    The Hebrew Prophets also heard the pure word of God but as soon as they put it on paper it was corrupt (as an aside question - are any of the other Hebrew prophets mentioned by name in the Koran?)

    There is no point at which any of the Hebrew bible was uncorrupted (it was corrupted at the point of being recorded in writing)

    Jesus spoke the pure words of God.

    Those that heard him HEARD the pure word of God.

    Anyone that attempted to write any of those words down, by defintion OF writing it down corrupted it.

    There is no point at which any written gospel was anything but corrupt.
We can conclude that in all of history there was no pure written revelation from God ever existed.

The only way to know anything (uncorrupted) about any of the Hebrew prophets including Jesus is to read the Koran.


** Would it be accurate to say therefore that the basic principle is if the pure revelation of God is written down it immediately becomes corrupt? (If so, would there be any exception to this "principle"? How?)

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:31 pm
Reply

Like this post
Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem

JehovahsWitness wrote:


okay so this is what I'm getting (correct me if I'm wrong):

Moses heard the pure word of God. It remained pure until he (or whoever it was) wrote it down.

It would be fallacious & dishonest of me to say "When it was corrupted". As i said earlier, Christians & Jews themselves reject the mosaic authorship of the Torah, thus whoever did author the Torah, cannot be guaranteed to be a "Prophet". Thus, we muslims cannot base our faith on "Doubt" or "Blind Faith".

JehovahsWitness wrote:

The Hebrew Prophets also heard the pure word of God but as soon as they put it on paper it was corrupt

No one can claim "Hebrew" scriptures "became corrupt when they were written down", but we see some aspects of them 'outright wrongl' (Such as bits that personify God to extremes/accuse prophets of idolatry & incest), & their authorships are anonymous, as there is NO WAY to prove the 'Prophets' personally authored the scriptures, thus we muslims cannot base our faith on these scriptures, but saying that, we acknowledge that 'Gods Word' does exist within them, how or to what extent, we dont know:
Quote:

And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.
(Quran 5:13)



JehovahsWitness wrote:

(as an aside question - are any of the other Hebrew prophets mentioned by name in the Koran?)


Absolutely: Here is the list from wikipedia


JehovahsWitness wrote:

There is no point at which any of the Hebrew bible was uncorrupted (it was corrupted at the point of being recorded in writing)

I made this claim against the NT, i have no objective reason to accuse the Hebrew Bible with the same accusations; the canonical Gospels were written on hearsay, thus it was never 'Gods Word' in the beginning, as Gods word is flawless:
Quote:

"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
(Proverbs 30:5)

The New Testament is far from flawless, it contains proven interpolations, concoctions, fabrications, alterations, it also most likely contains deletions.

Also, we do not believe it is up to "Ordinary Men"(Councils) to decide what books the canon should include, this fact in itself, is enough for muslims to reject the Bible in totality(Catholic or Protestant).

The hebrew bible contains:
* The Words of God
* The Words of the Prophets
* The Words of Historians

The last two being anonymous (authorship cannot be proven), thus no muslim can ever deny that the bible contains "Gods Word", but where/how/to-what-extent we do not know nor do we claim to know. Nor do we make baseless assumptions on "when" this happened. They are doubtful, we dont base our faith on doubt, but simultaneously, we acknowledge there is 'truth' within the Jewish & Christian scriptures, & we also acknowledge the Quran is the complete restoration of the previous scriptures:
Quote:

"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto." [Quran 5:44]

"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." [Quran 4:46]




JehovahsWitness wrote:

Jesus spoke the pure words of God.

Absolutely, Jesus was the light that the Jews of that time did not see.


JehovahsWitness wrote:

Those that heard him HEARD the pure word of God.

Those that heard him, heard God's Word, they also heard his own opinion, a small example (We consider both 'authoritative'):
Quote:

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.'

But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;

(Matthew 5:33-34)



JehovahsWitness wrote:

Anyone that attempted to write any of those words down, by defintion OF writing it down corrupted it.

I did not say that, i said:
Quote:

The “Gospels According To” are not the words of God – they are the perceptions of men.

The Gospels were written decades after Jesus' disappearance, thus they contain hearsay, perceptions, interpolations, exaggerations etc...etc.. I have no doubt they contain the words of Jesus or contain "Gods Word", but it was corrupted from the initial inscription.

For example, the authenticity of the Gospels, are weaker than the authenticity of the Sahih Hadiths (Words of the Prophet), as we know & can verify the chain of narrators by name. Still, we muslims, do not give these hadiths 'absolute authority', simply because they could contain, interpolations, concoctions etc...

Can you provide objective evidence to verify the disciple authorship of the Gospels? Or is this just a tradition promoted by the early Church?

In Islam, the only authentic absolute authority, is the Quran.


JehovahsWitness wrote:

There is no point at which any written gospel was anything but corrupt.

A better way to put it, there is no point that any written Gospel(including Gnostic) was pure.
Hearsay, Interpolations, Concoctions, Fabrications, Hyperbole, Anonymous Authors, Oral Tradition, translation from Armaic to Greek, etc... are all factors that degrade the pureness of the Gospels.


JehovahsWitness wrote:

We can conclude that in all of history there was no pure written revelation from God ever existed.

We can never know for sure about the Hebrew Bible, there are certainly large portions that we accept.


JehovahsWitness wrote:

The only way to know anything (uncorrupted) about any of the Hebrew prophets including Jesus is to read the Koran.

Its possible to learn about the Hebrew Prophets (uncorrupted) without the Quran, as at most times, there is no conflict with the Quran. But there are definetly certain conflicts against the Prophet that are "Cleared" in the Quran.
For example, the Bible portrays Solomon as an idol worshipper. Isn't it ironic that the Bible teaches against idol worship (Exodus 20:4) yet a great prophet of God & 'supposed author' of the Bible is an Idol worshipper? The Quran corrects this false accusation:
Quote:

And follow that which the devils falsely related against the kingdom of Solomon. Solomon disbelieved not; but the devils disbelieved, teaching mankind magic and that which was revealed to the two angels in Babel, Harut and Marut. Nor did they (the two angels) teach it to anyone till they had said: We are only a temptation, therefore disbelieve not (in the guidance of Allah). And from these two (angles) people learn that by which they cause division between man and wife; but they injure thereby no-one save by Allah's leave. And they learn that which harmeth them and profiteth them not. And surely they do know that he who trafficketh therein will have no (happy) portion in the Hereafter; and surely evil is the price for which they sell their souls, if they but knew.

(Quran 2:102)



JehovahsWitness wrote:

** Would it be accurate to say therefore that the basic principle is if the pure revelation of God is written down it immediately becomes corrupt?

Any scripture whose authorship is anonymous / any scripture that contains proven alterations, cannot be given authority in a religious theology, & it would be blind faith to do so.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:02 am
Reply

Like this post
Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry to keep picking your brains - but its such a rare occassion to for me to talk about these things in detail. Thanks you for your continued patience

Okay, lets see if I'm nearer.

THE TORAH (First 5 books of the Hebrew bible)

"Whoever did author the Torah, cannot be guaranteed to be a "Prophet".

Islamic postion: Moses heard the pure word of God. We don't know if he wrote anything down. If he DID write anything down, we don't know how much was from God and how much was his (or someone elses) human opinion. In short, we don't know "when" the Torah was corrupted (or indeed if it started off corrupt) but we do know it exists presently in a corrupte state.

THE HEBREW BIBLE

"... there is no way to prove the 'Prophets' personally authored the scriptures... we acknowledge that 'Gods Word' does exist within them*, how or to what extent, we dont know"

Islamic Position: The Hebrew bible as a collection of works, is also corrupt, meaning a mixture of true (God's Word) and false human opinion and errors. There is no way to know when this happened or indeed if they ever existed as the "pure word of God".


Thank you for the link**

THE GOSPELS

These revelations [the Gospels] that existed prior to any so called inscription were "pure" when they were intitially receivd from God; however, the written Gospels cannot be considered the word of God and have NEVER existed in anything but a corrupt state (meaning a mixture of true and false).

THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES

These are not considered the word of God.










FOOTNOTE
_________________________________________________________


** Can you explain how the verses are identified eg Qur'an 26:107 links to
    019.056
    YUSUFALI: Also mention in the Book the case of Idris: He was a man of truth (and sincerity), (and) a prophet:
    PICKTHAL: And make mention in the Scripture of Idris. Lo! he was a saint, a prophet;
    SHAKIR: And mention Idris in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet,
Are the passages in the Koran? what are the names and numbers (sorry to sound so ignorant. Is YUSUFALI a book? What do the numbers mean?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Display posts from previous:   

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version