According to the tales, Jesus gave up a weekend.

[Zzyzx]

.
According to the tales, Jesus gave up a weekend. What’s the big deal?

What is the ‘sacrifice’ in a supposedly eternal being giving up a weekend being ‘dead’?

An 'omnipotent god' (or part thereof, or whatever is claimed) would presumably know that the 'death' was extremely temporary -- just a few hours (less than 48 according to the tale).

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 150 by marco]

Thank you, that was interesting.

So anyway my question is ... what act can you (or anyone) point to that Jesus did that {quote} "provoked his own execution"?

Committing a crime for which there is a death penalty, attacking a member of State, or throwing oneself under the wheels of a speeding chariot for example ...could certainly be considered "provoking [ones] own execution", but reading the gospel narratives of Jesus, we can ask did Jesus commit any act or engage in any activity for which the outcome would justifiably be his execution.

JW




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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 068#981068

Did Jesus commit suicide?
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Is there a difference between "having someone killed" and accepting a sacrifice?
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Would Jesus' death be classified as what would today be called "victim precipitated homicide"?
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[Willum]

[Replying to post 151 by JehovahsWitness]

So anyway my question is ... what act can you (or anyone) point to that Jesus did that {quote} "provoked his own execution"?

Actually most of the major things he did eared him a true Jew's ire.

Take

Matthew 22:21, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's.

If you listen to it as a Greek or a Gentile, it seems wise, but if you were a Jew, it would be several blasphemies.

1. A. Caesar was a foreign god. By rendering to Caesar, you are appeasing a foreign god. A blasphemy.
1.B. But it is worse than that. The coins were graven images of foreign gods. Blasphemies to even touch. Yet Jesus did not give any proscription against using them. Another blasphemy.

A true Jew would be forced to have him killed for blasphemy, and that is what happened.

What else?

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

Asking the Jews to submit to a government empowered by pagan gods, asking them to blasphemy, would be an unforgivable sin, one worthy of being killed for blasphemy, and that is what happened.

There are two instances where Jesus would have blasphemed so badly, that he would have enraged the Jews so badly that he provoked his own execution.

[marco]

Thank you, that was interesting.

So anyway my question is ... what act can you (or anyone) point to that Jesus did that {quote} "provoked his own execution"?

I thought I had answered the question of how Christ provoked his own execution. He stood in front of people who revered Abraham and placed himself above Abraham.
This was foolhardy and provocative.

A similar piece of folly might be for someone to stand outside a mosque in Iran, say, and claim to be bigger than Muhammad.

Yes, one might ask: why would anyone be so carelessly provocative? Either through madness or self-delusion. There is a residue of a possibility the person might be talking factually, but were this so, they would have the gumption to choose their location properly.

[JehovahsWitness]

Thank you, that was interesting.

So anyway my question is ... what act can you (or anyone) point to that Jesus did that {quote} "provoked his own execution"?

He stood in front of people who revered Abraham and placed himself above Abraham.

This was foolhardy and provocative.

But was it illegal?








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Were any of Jesus declarations illegal?
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[marco]

But was it illegal?

Are we having the same conversation? The issue is Christ's provocative behaviour and language which caused people to call for his execution not whether he went through a red traffic light.


Christ said he was going to die - the only thing that made this happen was his own behaviour, his own intention, his own refusal to speak properly on his behalf. Imagine, if you will, an accused saying to the judge: "I can show it wasn't me by providing fifteen angel witnesses, but I'm not going to."

If this is the signal for posting up some previously broadcast piece of ethereal knowledge, such as the names of the angels who could have testified or Christ's nom de guerre, please don't. I don't read these post scripta.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are we having the same conversation?

Yes I asked what single act Jesus performed that provoked us own Jesus death and you said saying he was older than Abraham.

The issue is Christ's provocative behaviour and language ...

No, the issue is did he provoke his own death ie did Jesus commit suicide by proxy. If you are just pointing out that Jesus ruffled some feathers then I will say yes, he did more than that , he shook things up and good. If your point is Jesus killed himself then you might like to put on some coffee, we going be here for some time.

Would Jesus' death be classified as what would today be called "victim precipitated homicide"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 213#357213

The point I am making is absolutely nothing did Jesus to cause premature death. Even if Jesus were to have broken the law (which he did not) it would still not meet the definition of a suicide, even suicide "by proxy" ("victim precipitated homicide") (it would be the definition of breaking a law and facing due punishment for it).

As for provoking a crowd, 1) Jesus made no such declarations before any crowds (he spoke in "private"consultation with learned religious leaders and legal experts) 2) even if his words did provoke some, he had the protection of law and due process so he was not provoking premature death.

The issue is Christ's provocative behaviour and language which caused people to call for his execution ...

So? So what?! I could call for your execution .. for using the internet on a Wednesday, does that mean you would have caused your own death? Acting within your legal rights in a reasonable way is not suicide?

CONCLUSION We know that putting oneself in a dangerous situation or being able to avoid death through cowardice or compromise does NOT meet the defintion of suicide (they may well actually meet the definition of heroism). Whether Jesus was foolish and reckless or brave and outspoken is entirely a matter of opinion but there is nothing in the bible account that depicts him of provoking his own death certainly not his discourse.

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Would Jesus' death be classified as what would today be called "victim precipitated homicide"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 213#357213

Did Jesus commit suicide?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 068#981068

Is there a difference between "having someone killed" and accepting a sacrifice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 904#980904

Can Jesus public ministry be viewed as "suicidal behaviour"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 976#980976

Were any of Jesus declarations illegal (blasphemous)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 544#980544

[Willum]

[Replying to post 156 by JehovahsWitness]

You do not seem to have read your Bible.
Were I a Jew of the day, I would have him killed for many counts of blasphemy, inciting blasphemy and preaching abrogation of the Commandments.

[OnceConvinced]

Christ's words said nothing at all like 'to hell with the poor'.
Any other assertion ignores the evidence we have at hand.

I will let others draw their own conclusions on that.

Any other assertion comes off as a person WANTING to find fault with Christ.

Your arguments come off as a person DETERMINED NOT to find any fault with Christ. I’m betting that from your POV, he can’t possibly do anything wrong and even if he did you’d find a way to justify it.

I see nothing more to add to this line of our discussion, and I am leaving the previous posts to stand as they are and moving on.

Agreed. This debate is getting old.

Your position is illogical.

You’ve taken quotes out of context so of course it’s going to look illogical. I can’t even see what point you’re trying to make by doing that. It may be that I am drawing conclusions based on certain presumption, but I don’t believe I’ve made any illogical conclusions based on those presumptions. Maybe it’s just you not getting it?

It was MY claim; and the evidence I used to support MY claim were HIS words that He had no place to lay His head.

My argument was why would you believe he had no place to rest his head just because he said it? Just because he said he had no place to lay his head doesn’t make it true. He could very well have had places in other cities he owned.

That is more evidence than you have provided to support your claim.

The only evidence either of us have is what it says in the bible and what we can see in reality today. You seem to want to focus only ont he bible and avoid looking at reality.

In reality today we see people like Jesus living it up like celebrities, being adored and having gifts showered upon them. And what we can see in the bible Jesus was treated similarly.

I do not know what happened to the gold.

Exactly!

Do you? Do you even know how much was given?

No I don’t but it’s irrelevant. Jesus was showered with expensive gifts and the bible doesn’t say what happened to the gold. It could very well be that he invested it. In fact wouldn’t that be a wise thing to do based on some of Jesus own parables? Eg the Parable of the Talents?

Are you even willing to entertain the possibility that Jesus had wealth stashed away somewhere? If not then you have no right to accuse me of just wanting to find fault with Jesus. Not when you aren’t willing to even consider there might be fault to find.

We can know the answer to your question though (which you did not copy from my previous post) - which is that Christ told them to give that money to the poor.

Within Christianity I see Christian organisations being the ones to take the money donated to them by people and using it for whatever purpose they are promoting. How do we know Jesus wasn’t taking this money himself and “redistributing� it?

Is that not a possibility?

All I’m talking about are possibilities here that should be considered. You seem very quick to slam these possibilities. Is that because you just don’t want to even consider them?

He was speaking as per the flesh - the context was about pouring perfume on Him - that is only a matter of the flesh.

Hold on your missing the "context" about preparing him for his burial. Are you trying to say that was a matter of the flesh? Clearly not, because he hadn't died yet. Surely the context there is spiritual? Or maybe it was just a lousy excuse like I suspect it was.

In the flesh. In the spirit. Surely they are both just as valuable. In fact wouldn’t it be a better thing to have the holy spirit? Because then Jesus’s power flows through you as well. You no longer have to rely on Jesus being there in the flesh.

I can’t believe you are unable to see the weak arguments Jesus was giving here to justify the lavish attention.

And as for giving his life the death was forced upon him. He didn’t just walk up there and nail himself to the cross, did he?

He could have walked away; He could have avoided it; He could have had His disciples fight for Him; and as He said, He could have called upon angels to prevent it.

"My God, my god, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Does that sound like someone who was able to walk away or be rescued?

That sounds like someone who already chose not to walk away. That sounds like someone in immense suffering and pain, having a moment of fear and doubt, and calling out to His Father in His anguish. One final thing that He had to experience before He died.

Sounds like me when I lost my faith. When I realised the God I'd believed in for so many years wasn't all he was cracked up to be. I suffered terrible anguish too. Not physical pain, sure, but emotional suffering like you wouldn't believe and it went on for a number of years, not just a few hours.

There were times I felt like crying out "My god, my god, why has thou forsaken me?"

Perhaps Jesus was going through the same anguish as me? Realising there was no god there to support him? It certainly sounds like it to me, someone who has been in that situation where God seemed to have disappeared.

In fact, just this morning I had one of my ocassional relapses as I was driving to work, wishing there was a loving god out there who wanted a relationship with me. For a moment it brought back some of that anguish I went through. That sense of great loss.

I could well imagine Jesus going through that, if indeed he was a genuine believer up there on that cross, believing himself to be special.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 148 by marco]

Exactly.

People can become better people and be better off due to many reasons. Sometimes it might be by embracing Jesus or some other religions. But it certainly doen't have to be and there are many instances where belief in Jesus and the bible makes people terrible people. Or causes them to be worse off.

I think I've become a better person SINCE losing my faith in Jesus. I am better off in many ways.

[marco]

[Replying to post 156 by JehovahsWitness]

We have wandered into another discussion, about Christ's possible suicide. Back to the one we were having a few posts ago - Jesus spoke to very devout Jews, who revered Abraham, with words that placed himself above Abraham. This is called being provocative, since he knew his audience and he knew the effect his words would have.



I recall, during the early struggles in Syria, a young lad was selling tea and one of the anti-Government rebels asked him for a free cup. The boy unwisely said: "I would not give a free cup even if the Prophet Muhammad asked." He was murdered because of his provocative words. I'm sure the lad committed no offense. Nor did Jesus.


So when you try to point out Jesus committed no offense, that has no relevance. Was he provocative? Yes. Like the young boy, but more deservingly, since as an adult he had better control over his speech and a clearer insight into consequences, Jesus suffered death.


Of course according to myth and legend, unlike the poor Syrian boy, Jesus returned from the sepulchre. To carry out his aim, he had to set up a situation to get himself killed. Ergo, provocation.