According to the tales, Jesus gave up a weekend.

[Zzyzx]

.
According to the tales, Jesus gave up a weekend. What’s the big deal?

What is the ‘sacrifice’ in a supposedly eternal being giving up a weekend being ‘dead’?

An 'omnipotent god' (or part thereof, or whatever is claimed) would presumably know that the 'death' was extremely temporary -- just a few hours (less than 48 according to the tale).

[marco]

[Replying to post 156 by JehovahsWitness]

You do not seem to have read your Bible.
Were I a Jew of the day, I would have him killed for many counts of blasphemy, inciting blasphemy and preaching abrogation of the Commandments.

Or you would have brought the blasphemer to the authorities where things would take their natural course, allowing Tacitus to write that Christ suffered the extreme penalty under the governor Pilate.

A good question might be: How else could Jesus have arranged for his own death, if not by blasphemy? Maybe the poor man was restricted in his choices.

[JehovahsWitness]

A good question might be: How else could Jesus have arranged for his own death, if not by blasphemy? Maybe the poor man was restricted in his choices.

Are suggesting Jesus actually blasphemed?



RELATED POSTS


What was blasphemy according to the Mosaic Law code?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 228#981228

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 160 by marco]

He deliberately provoked his own execution...

My understanding is one is executed for a crime, are you suggesting Jesus committed a crime?

Jesus spoke to very devout Jews, who revered Abraham, with words that placed himself above Abraham. This is called being provocative, since he knew his audience and he knew the effect his words would have.

So what! if you are saying Jesus said things that offended people, I agree (good for him!!).


IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING PROVOCATIVE AND PROVOKING ONES OWN DEATH/EXECUTION?

If you are saying that he performed a "death provoking act" as in "an act for which premature death/execution was the natural, expected and inevitable result which for (all intents and purposes) amounts to suicide...

Would Jesus' death be classified as what would today be called "victim precipitated homicide"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 213#357213

.... you will need to present evidence of that:

• - were there any penal laws violated (blasphemy laws)
  - were there any precedents that establish the death would be the natural result (similar cases resulting in death)
  - did the act defy a natural law which would inevitably lead to death (jumping of a cliff, hanging)
  - did the act cause a lethal reaction from duly appointed authorities (lunging at at Cesaer with a knife and being promptly killed by his praetorian guard)

.... Perhaps you can begin by defining what you mean by a " provoking ones own death " (as opposed to being killed) if you are not happy with mine* above and then present supporting evidence.



Thanks,



JW



ps: If you are just saying you think Jesus was being provocative /rash/reckless ect and you think he got what he deserved, (indeed you'd have taken delight in killing him yourself had you been there) that's fine. We are indeed talking about different things and this conversation ends here.

[Willum]

A good question might be: How else could Jesus have arranged for his own death, if not by blasphemy? Maybe the poor man was restricted in his choices.

Are suggesting Jesus actually blasphemed?



RELATED POSTS


What was blasphemy according to the Mosaic Law code?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 228#981228

Of course. How are you unaware of this?
Were I a Jews of the day, I would have him killed for:
Saying the Judaic nation should obey a pagan one.
Paying tithes to a foreign deity, a man who was worshiped as a god.
Being a bastard child and entering the congregation.
Telling other Jews to utilize coins with foreign gods on them, declaring their divinity.
Saying adulterers should only be punished by those without sin. What about murderers? Should they too only be punished by those without sin?

How do you not know and understand why a Jew of the day, can and did have him killed?

[marco]

Are suggesting Jesus actually blasphemed?

Ah, we must never tire of testing definitions. I know Abraham was not Yahweh, so his attack on Abraham simply annoyed people; but his claim of divine powers, being older than Abraham, placed him on a par with Gd, which would constitute blasphemy to his devout listeners. Anyway, what Marco thinks of what Jesus said is not the issue: all important is what his listeners thought, and what he intended them to think, and his motives for saaying what he did. Take Matthew (not with the usual pinch of salt of course):

"But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy!" QED

[JehovahsWitness]

Are suggesting Jesus actually blasphemed?

all important is [1] what his listeners thought, and what [2] he intended them to think, and his [3] motives for saaying what he did.

Numbering and Emphasis MINE


We do not have mind reading powers so we cannot say what his listeners thought, or can we read Jesus mind and know what Jesus [1] thoughts, [2] intentions, and feelings ( [3] motives). Indeed when it comes to whether or not a CRIME was committed these considerations are totally irrelevant. If we are discussing the question of whether blasphemy was committed, all we have is what did the law state and did Jesus recorded words and actions violate said law.

Your thoughts on the question, as you said, are also irrelevant.

So did Jesus violate any recorded law on blasphemy? Can you answer this question or can you not answer this question?

I take it you don't know whether or not you are suggesting Jesus actually committed blasphemy in the post below

A good question might be: How else could Jesus have arranged for his own death, if not by blasphemy? Maybe the poor man was restricted in his choices.

[marco]

We do not have mind reading powers so we cannot say what his listeners thought or can we read Jesus mind and know what Jesus [1] thoughts, [2] intentions, and feelings ( [3] motives). Indeed when it comes to whether or not a CRIME was committed these considerations are totally irrelevant. If we are discussing the question of whether blasphemy was committed, all we have is what did the law state and did Jesus recorded words and actions violate said law.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, JW. Actions very often are a guide to the thoughts that preceded them. I have never claimed to be a mind-reader, an occupation that seems to fascinate, but luckily common sense means I don't need that talent.


Let's see how we can help: the High Priest tore his garments and declared Christ has committed blasphemy. That tells me he not only THOUGHT it, he SAID it. Now we get to the competition between YOUR interpretation of blasphemy and the High Priest's. I am an observer and I observe this man, skilled in the subtleties of scriptural transgressions, declared Christ was a blasphemer. Good enough for me. When somebody 2 millennia away posts some definition, as a challenge, I still go by the High Priest. Also, he was there, and was able to see Jesus smirking or looking smug or showing his tongue.

So did Jesus violate any recorded law on blasphemy? Can you answer this question or can you not answer this question?

Well I did answer a different question, which was "Did Jesus commit blasphemy?" The best way of deciding is to get the view of somebody who was (a) there and (b) was well versed in the law. May I call in that nice High Priest again? He still says Jesus blasphemed.

[JehovahsWitness]

Well I did answer a different question, which was "Did Jesus commit blasphemy?"

I'm sorry I must have missed the answer to that question....so was your answer to the above question ...: "Yes, Jesus commit blasphemy" or was was your answer to the above question ...

"No, no Jesus did not commit blasphemy"?

(From what you say the question you answered was not "was Jesus convicted of blasphemy?" So I will take you at your word that that was not the question that was answered, and it certainly isn't the question I am asking)

[marco]

I'm sorry I must have missed the answer to that question....so was your answer to the above question ...: "Yes, Jesus commit blasphemy" or was was your answer to the above question ...

"No, no Jesus did not commit blasphemy"?

Just re-read what I wrote and you will find which answer applies.

it certainly isn't the question I am asking)

That's because you are asking various questions. The one I answered was: "Did Jesus commit blasphemy" The High Priest, who knew better than either you or I, declared Jesus blasphemed. So Jesus blasphemed.



A quick reminder: Did Jesus, the blasphemer, give up a weekend by getting himself executed and hurrying back from the dead? Here I take the word of the Roman historian Tacitus who said that Jesus was executed. He did not mention Jesus rose again and I'm pretty certain had that been known, he would have added that remarkable fact.


If one sees Jesus as God then Jesus didn't blaspheme against himself. But if he wasn't God and suggested he was, this would be called blasphemy.

[JehovahsWitness]

Just re-read what I wrote and you will find which answer applies.

I've re-read and I still can't find it. Would you mind terribly typing the word "yes" or "no"?

So did Jesus violate any recorded law on blasphemy?