18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
Translation: Abraham looked up and saw God as three men and he bowed down.
Surely Christians can use this as evidence for the trinity?
Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
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Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #31And which words in the verse indicate he could not be addressing one of the three? And necessitate a "contortion" in order to arrive at the conclusion that he was?PinSeeker wrote:If one contorts Genesis 18 into something other than what it is, yes.JehovahsWitness wrote:PinSeeker wrote:
In verse 3, why does he not say "My Lords..." (plural) but instead, "My Lord..." (singular)?
Could it not be because he is addressing one of the three in particular?
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Re: Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #32At the risk of sounding short and/or overly harsh -- which is surely not my intent -- no.JehovahsWitness wrote:Could it not be because he is addressing one of the three in particular?PinSeeker wrote:
In verse 3, why does he not say "My Lords..." (plural) but instead, "My Lord..." (singular)?
I did, but am happy do so again for you:JehovahsWitness wrote:dittoPinSeeker wrote:.... [Abraham] reverts back to referring to the three as one ("that you may go on, since you have visited your servant"...
"Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.�
All of this illustrates all my points, but particularly verse 5, where Abraham says, "I will bring you" (singular) "...a piece of bread, that you" (singular) "...may refresh yourselves;" (plural) "...that you" (reverting back to singular) "...may go on, since you" (singular) "...have visited your" (singular) "...servant." Abraham is referring to all three distinct persons collectively as one.
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Re: Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #33Do you feel inclined to support your conclusion with evidence? Ie what in the verse renders it impossible that Abraham was addressing one of the three in particular (in verse 3)PinSeeker wrote:At the risk of sounding short and/or overly harsh -- which is surely not my intent -- no.JehovahsWitness wrote:Could it not be because he is addressing one of the three in particular?PinSeeker wrote:
In verse 3, why does he not say "My Lords..." (plural) but instead, "My Lord..." (singular)?
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Re: Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #34I think it necessary for anyone reading it without a preconceived agenda that when Abraham says, "Lord," he is addressing all three, especially since the text does not explicitly say that he was addressing only one of the three.JehovahsWitness wrote: And which words in the verse indicate he could not be addressing one of the three? And necessitate a "contortion" in order to arrive at the conclusion that he was?
Too, the contortion may not be deliberate, but it is what it is. As I implied, if one is honest with himself, he must at least ask why there were three persons presenting themselves to Abraham rather than just one.
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Re: Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #35I did; see above. I realize I'm probably not going to change your mind, JW. Neither will you change mine.JehovahsWitness wrote:Do you feel inclined to support your conclusion with evidence? Ie what in the verse renders it impossible that Abraham was addressing one of the three in particular.PinSeeker wrote:At the risk of sounding short and/or overly harsh -- which is surely not my intent -- no.JehovahsWitness wrote:Could it not be because he is addressing one of the three in particular?PinSeeker wrote:
In verse 3, why does he not say "My Lords..." (plural) but instead, "My Lord..." (singular)?
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Re: Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #36Are you aware that in verse five ALL the the YOU /YOURs of Abraham addressing the three are plural NOT singular in Hebrew?PinSeeker wrote:
All of this illustrates all my points, but particularly verse 5, where Abraham says, "I will bring you" (singular) "...a piece of bread, that you" (singular) "...may refresh yourselves;" (plural) "...that you" (reverting back to singular) "...may go on, since you" (singular) "...have visited your" (singular) "...servant." Abraham is referring to all three distinct persons collectively as one.
No he is not.PinSeeker wrote:
Abraham is referring to all three distinct persons collectively as one.
JW
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Post #37
While people are indeed using eisegesis to interpret the account in the OP, the statement that every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis is incorrect. I use exegesis for every scripture and have had no problems avoiding or uprooting my own input. How you do that is take into account the whole Bible. Letting the Bible add it's own input from other scriptures. The Bible explains the Bible. Let the Bible explain the verse. Indeed let God explain Himself.ttruscott wrote: The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.
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Re: Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #38Yes. But the plural is acknowledging of the singular entity of the three. Like I said, I don't expect you change your opinion.JehovahsWitness wrote:Are you aware that in verse five ALL the the YOU /YOURs of Abraham addressing the three are plural NOT singular in Hebrew?PinSeeker wrote:
All of this illustrates all my points, but particularly verse 5, where Abraham says, "I will bring you" (singular) "...a piece of bread, that you" (singular) "...may refresh yourselves;" (plural) "...that you" (reverting back to singular) "...may go on, since you" (singular) "...have visited your" (singular) "...servant." Abraham is referring to all three distinct persons collectively as one.
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Re: Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #39Yes, he is.JehovahsWitness wrote:No he is not.PinSeeker wrote:
Abraham is referring to all three distinct persons collectively as one.
Reminds me of the old Lite Beer from Miller commercials: "Tastes great!" "Less filling!" "Tastes great!" "Less filling!"
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Re: Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #40GENESIS CHAPTER 18 VERSE 3: HOW MANY PEOPLE WAS ABRAHAM TALKING TO?
Abraham saw three "men" but running up to them did he address one jn particular or all three as a group?
JW
Abraham saw three "men" but running up to them did he address one jn particular or all three as a group?
"Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by�
... but Lord is singular, so why would one presume he was not addressing a singular individual within the group? Otherwise he would say LORDS. In verse 3 all the pronouns of Abrahams address are singular! The LORD appeared to Abraham and Abraham addresses him in the singular. There is nothing to suggest plurality. Surely the first reflex when you see a singular pronoun is to assume it is referring to a singular individual, that's how language works!PinSeeker wrote:
I think it necessary for anyone reading it without a preconceived agenda that when Abraham says, "Lord," he is addressing all three.
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:15 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8