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Even based on the biggest 'multitude' enumerated in the gospels, it'd just be some folk from villages within a two or three hour stroll of wherever he'd decided to preach. Or if he'd been near a city, maybe not even one tenth of those within an hour's walk. To fishermen accustomed to the solitude of the open lake, such crowds might have given the impression that Jesus was a massive superstar - that's certainly an impression reflected in the gospels. But based on the few actual numbers provided, he was little more than an interesting diversion.SallyF wrote: So, who were the multitudes who flocked to hear this guy who was supposedly sired by the Holy Ghost …?
People who were hungering and thirsting.SallyF wrote:
So, who were the multitudes who flocked to hear this guy who was supposedly sired by the Holy Ghost …?
“Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.�
Since these same people spoke of their ancestors eating the manna in the desert, these people were Israel. There may also have been some Gentiles in the crowd.
No, even His own apostles did not understand that He had come to do this until after His resurrection.Were they Jews who were convinced and grateful he had come to die for their sins …?
Were they perhaps existing supporters of the deposed David royal family, and the faction Jesus belonged to was well-established and widespread for centuries, and he didn't found a new religion …?
I'm not sure what you are referring to here.
Once the people (in the same example above) saw the miracle He performed, they believed Him to be the Prophet who is to come into the world (the Messiah; the One Moses spoke about).
After the people saw the sign [Jesus] performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.� [Jesus] knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
(above quotes are from the feeding of the multitude at John 6)
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
tam wrote: Peace to you,
You are quoting only from the propaganda of the people who were trying to sell the Jesus idea.People who were hungering and thirsting.SallyF wrote:
So, who were the multitudes who flocked to hear this guy who was supposedly sired by the Holy Ghost …?
“Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.�
Since these same people spoke of their ancestors eating the manna in the desert, these people were Israel. There may also have been some Gentiles in the crowd.
No, even His own apostles did not understand that He had come to do this until after His resurrection.Were they Jews who were convinced and grateful he had come to die for their sins …?
Were they perhaps existing supporters of the deposed David royal family, and the faction Jesus belonged to was well-established and widespread for centuries, and he didn't found a new religion …?
I'm not sure what you are referring to here.
Once the people (in the same example above) saw the miracle He performed, they believed Him to be the Prophet who is to come into the world (the Messiah; the One Moses spoke about).
After the people saw the sign [Jesus] performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.� [Jesus] knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
(above quotes are from the feeding of the multitude at John 6)
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
If you could demonstrate that any of it was the word of any god, there would be no need to even suspect that we may need to examine just what the propagandists were selling … and just what they may be omitting and distorting.
You have said that the possibly fictional Jesus character was NOT trying to sell the multitudes the idea that he had come to this planet to make himself a human sacrifice the their local god, Jehovah.
That idea is not seeling today, and it certainly would not have had market appeal to his own people in his own time.
Jesus would have been trying to sell himself as the legitimate heir to the throne of David.
He possibly belonged to the Essene faction.
Simple human politics.
Jesus was opposed by the Pharisee and Sadducee factions.
Jews of all factions were dispersed around the Middle East.
Jesus and the Essenes would have had support from existing Jewish communities.
He is most unlikely to have founded a start-up religion, selling himself as a Holy Ghost-sired messiah.
Jesus had NOTHING to sell his contemporaries other than his claim to David descendancy.
Jesus achieved NOTHING remotely messianic for his own people in his own time.
Reading between the lines of the propaganda - which is all we have - we may speculate that his existing power base of Essene hopefuls were expecting the legions of angels and Jesus to rule the world … just as Christians do today, when they expect Jesus to return.
I offer that Jesus was selling himself to an established faction, and when he failed to summon the angels, they punished him and considered him "dead".
He then raised himself from his excommunication/death, by forming a breakaway faction with those who remained loyal to him.
And thence began the cover-up propaganda we have today, with the idea that the angels will appear NEXT time.
It's all quite simple human politics.
If "God" were ever shown to have anything to do with the "scriptures", the hypothesis of human politics would vanish.
Quoting more propaganda/scripture to back propaganda/scripture, does NOT demonstrate that we are dealing with the word of a god.
SallyF wrote:Interesting. Where are you getting your information from about the multitudes, then? Or that there even were multitudes?tam wrote: Peace to you,
You are quoting only from the propaganda of the people who were trying to sell the Jesus idea.People who were hungering and thirsting.SallyF wrote:
So, who were the multitudes who flocked to hear this guy who was supposedly sired by the Holy Ghost …?
“Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.�
Since these same people spoke of their ancestors eating the manna in the desert, these people were Israel. There may also have been some Gentiles in the crowd.
No, even His own apostles did not understand that He had come to do this until after His resurrection.Were they Jews who were convinced and grateful he had come to die for their sins …?
Were they perhaps existing supporters of the deposed David royal family, and the faction Jesus belonged to was well-established and widespread for centuries, and he didn't found a new religion …?
I'm not sure what you are referring to here.
Once the people (in the same example above) saw the miracle He performed, they believed Him to be the Prophet who is to come into the world (the Messiah; the One Moses spoke about).
After the people saw the sign [Jesus] performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.� [Jesus] knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
(above quotes are from the feeding of the multitude at John 6)
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
You have said that the possibly fictional Jesus character was NOT trying to sell the multitudes the idea that he had come to this planet to make himself a human sacrifice the their local god, Jehovah.
This is not at all what I said.
You asked if the multitudes came to Him out of gratitude that He was a sacrifice for theirs sins; I responded that even His apostles did not understand this until after His death and resurrection.
**
The rest of your hypothesis' boil down to a conspiracy theory with no apparent evidence to back it other than conjecture and opinion - and even that conjecture and opinion is formed from "reading (whatever you want) between the lines" of letters that you do not count as being trustworthy to begin with. All about a person you think might possibly be fictional... which really makes no sense to me at all. If you're going to create a fictional character, why in the world would you need to 'cover something up' about him?
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Your last sentence I very much agree with.tam wrote:
The rest of your hypothesis' boil down to a conspiracy theory with no apparent evidence to back it other than conjecture and opinion - and even that conjecture and opinion is formed from "reading (whatever you want) between the lines" of letters that you do not count as being trustworthy to begin with. All about a person you think might possibly be fictional... which really makes no sense to me at all. If you're going to create a fictional character, why in the world would you need to 'cover something up' about him?
[Replying to post 7 by SallyF]
BTW, the OP was about whether the Jesus character had an existing power base in the Jewish Diaspora, or did he form a start-up religion.
It would be much appreciated if you addressed the OP.
tam wrote:[Replying to post 7 by SallyF]
BTW, the OP was about whether the Jesus character had an existing power base in the Jewish Diaspora, or did he form a start-up religion.
It would be much appreciated if you addressed the OP.
Well, you asked three question in the OP (none of which were 'can you demonstrate that the scriptures are from God'). I responded to them all. The last question is hard to respond to without you fleshing out what you mean. What do you mean by existing power base? Why does it have to be either of those things that you are suggesting: an existing power base or a start-up religion?
Christ did not form a start-up religion. He said worship (by true worshipers) would be done in spirit and in truth. But I do not know what you mean by "existing power base in Jewish diaspora".
Peace again to you.
