Musing On The Mother - ACT II

Discussion of anything to do with the 'why' questions of life.
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Musing On The Mother - ACT II

Post #1

Post by William »

[center]Image[/center]
Last edited by William on Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:14 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Post #11

Post by The Tanager »

As I sit there looking at Master ColdFire, I see movement to my side. Manu Iti is back and laughing with another being that looks like Master ColdFire. Perhaps there are different beings of the same species? I turn to my Master ColdFire and say

Callum: What, then, is your name?

The little master: I am Master ColdFire.

Callum: This could get confusing.

I then turn to Manu Iti.

Callum: You seem to be trying some tricks again, my friend. I wonder if I passed your test or if Wiremu even allowed you to see it all. So, what is Wiremu's intention behind it?

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Post #12

Post by William »

Master ColdFire gives me a 'thumbs up' then slowly decends back into the Campfire as I hear Callum talking to the burning branch on the seat next to him.
I wave back and return the 'thumbs up' to Master ColdFire and then hear Callum questioning Wiremu's motivations. He seems to understand he was being tested but is unclear what it was all about.

I decide that it is not something I need to answer to, as he appears more than capable of drawing his own conclusions on both and my input isn't likely to help him in that regard, given our track record to date.


Manu Iti: Wiremu tells me "If we Judge, we will be Judged."
What do you make of that saying Callum? Do you agree with it as good advice?

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Post #13

Post by The Tanager »

Manu Iti seems a bit distant upon his return. He asks me what I think of the advice "If we Judge, we will be Judged."

Callum: It is great advice. But that doesn't tell us much because we may not see the same concept with those words. For instance, the Tanager informs me that you seem to see a burning branch next to me, without calling it Master ColdFire, yet it looks the same to me as your Master ColdFire. It even tells me that is its name. What it means depends on the context. I would say it is good to judge ideas. It's not only good, but inescapable. Yet, we are not judge over each other. So, how do you mean that advice?

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Post #14

Post by William »

Callum replies to my question with a 'for instance' to do with his seeing things unfold differently to me - in this case - he sees Master Coldfire sitting next to him, whereas I see only a burning stick.

Manu Iti: I don't understand your reference to how we see things differently. How do you see this as 'judging' - or if you don't, please explain why you referenced it.

I am reminded of another instance of us seeing things differently.

Manu Iti: In what way does judgement come into the fact that you discern my form differently from how I understand my form to be?

In what context does it matter to either of us that judgement need come into the equation?


I am hopeful that Callum's answer might shed some light on how he perceives things in relation to Judgmentalism.

Manu Iti: Obviously we see things differently, but how is that - of itself - an act of being Judgmental?

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Post #15

Post by The Tanager »

Manu Iti asks me a few questions. I look to my side at the Master ColdFire who smiles back up to me.

Callum: I did not mean our seeing what sits next to me differently as an example of one of us being judging. I only meant it as an example that we can see the same thing differently. This applies to words and phrases as well. There are different possible interpretations of what "If we judge, we will be judged" could mean. You asked the question and have a certain concept in mind. We need to get what you mean in asking that question to make sure I'm not answering a different question than what you are asking me.

For instance, if I were to ask you whether man is the only rational animal, you could interpret that in at least two ways. Does man mean "male human" or the human species in general? You may answer the question the same, regardless, but many would not.


Manu Iti also asked about judgment in relation to how we discern each other's forms differently. Clarification of terms is so important, that I hope this doesn't get glossed over.

Callum: What do you mean by "judgment" in this sentence? We 'see' each other differently because Wiremu and The Tanager are given the 'freedom' to do so. Wiremu could have made it a rule that we must see each other in specific physical descriptions that remain constant and all of that, but did not. In this sense, neither can be wrong about how we look, because there is no actual truth about how we look. But when there is an actual truth, there can be someone getting it wrong. At that point, we can judge wrongly. Yet, still, there is a further judgment that would say not only did you get this wrong, but I'm going to start judging your motives on why you got it wrong, and judging that you will never get it right, and all of that. Perhaps you mean judgment in a different way?

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Post #16

Post by William »

Listening to Callum explain that he is confused as to what the act of Judging is and requires an explanation as to what I think it is - as if that would 'clear things up' for him on the subject - reminds me of my recent communion with Wiremu.

I reach into the folds of my garments and find the small booklet. I take it out and open it up, and the symbols on its pages light up.


Manu Iti: What exactly is the point you are trying to make Callum? Is it perhaps that no matter what we do, we are essentially Judging, and therefore any rule which prohibits one from being judgmental, is impossible to follow and therefore shouldn't be a rule at all?

I ponder on Callums 'for instance' as to whether man is the only rational animal...

Manu Iti: Part of the problem regarding the question of your 'for instance' Callum is that the question uses words which allow for interpretations to go off on tangents, as loopholes are looked for...
The question could be asked, "Are Humans the only rational Animal" which would at least set aside the gender question....but is the question itself one rooted in judgmentalism? If so, should it even be asked, let alone answered?


I hear the distinct sound of laughter coming from the nearby Mystic Forest - The Patupaiarehe are enjoying something together. They would wonder at what the question itself implies. They might even ask "When you say 'Humans' are you including 'Humanoids' like Faerie creatures" ...if they even cared about finding loopholes. They are far too busy having fun for that kind of nonsense.

Manu Iti: Perhaps the statement; "If we Judge, we will be Judged." only has potential significance to those who understand what it is to judge?
Perhaps this is the same for those who wish to continue doing so and look for loopholes which assist them in that?


I take a swig of tea, and scan the StarScape.

Manu Iti: The Truth is Callum, while I clearly see that the question whether man is the only rational animal is open to discussion for purpose of clarity... unlike you, I do not see any similarity in that question and the Statement "If we Judge, we will be Judged."

Not only because one is a statement while the other is a question, but also because those who do not know what Judgment is, are the most likely to not understand the statement as given...unless of course their questioning the statement and coming from that position...the position of claiming not to understand - is a judgement based position, specific to assist in the finding of loopholes that one can utilize in order to continue being Judgmental in defiance of the statement.

Do you think that might be a possibility Callum?

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Post #17

Post by The Tanager »

As Manu Iti responds it sounds as though he might be saying that there is only one possible way to take "if we judge, we will be judged" and that it's possible that my responses are an attempt to find loopholes so that I can continue being judgmental. He may very well not be meaning to imply this, though. It certainly is possible that one could do such a thing, but if I am doing it it is completely unintentional.

Callum: My point is that I don't understand why you asked me whether "If we judge, we will be judged" is good advice. On the grammatical face of it, it seems to be a claim that those who "judge" will be "judged". That, alone, is not advice anymore than saying the Earth is spherical is advice. So, it seems like you are going beyond the grammar.

Some people distinguish between judging ideas and judging people. My experience of the phrase comes from Jesus. Jesus seems to be talking about having compassion on others and making sure that you have dealt with your own sin before trying to help others with theirs. That example of love does not mean one is not to judge ideas as true/false.

I think you were asking me whether it is possible that one could (purposefully? unintentionally?) try to clarify a question in order to find a loophole so that they can continue being judgmental. I think it possible, but I think it wrong to judge people's motives on insufficient evidence. I think it good to not judge here and take people at their words. But perhaps that is me taking your comments in an unintended light, so you can certainly clarify what you meant, if that is the case.

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Post #18

Post by William »

Callums reply inches toward understanding. He is jumping the gun somewhat, as the question wasn't asked in judgment but simply to see if he could accept the notion as plausible. He seems to agree that it is. He also appears to think that this is not what he is doing himself.

Manu Iti: Thank you for your reply Callum. I am not asking as a way of indirectly judging that this is what I think you are up to, but simply to see if you agreed that such is possible. Indeed, you might also agree that one might not consciously - and therefore purposefully - be aware of that dynamic taking place.

I thumb through the pages of the Booklet until I find what I am looking for.

Manu Iti: This booklet contains all the data produced when I was in The Silence of my Quiet Time and communed with Wiremu.
You mentioned that Jesus seems to be talking about having compassion on others and making sure that you have dealt with your own sin before trying to help others with theirs, in relation to the statement "If we Judge, we will be Judged."
Wiremu had this to say to me, regarding that.


Clearing my throat, I read out the passage from the Booklet.
  • Wiremu: Yes. It is the nature of the inmates of the system in my current universe, that judgement is constant. Any way to overcome another through judgment is the way of life here.

    Manu Iti: What about the idea "Judge not or you will be judged"?

    Wiremu: It is incorporated into the inmates algorithms and given a new meaning.

    Manu Iti: What do you mean by that?

    Again the image changes and I see another parchment Wiremu holds;


    The Script:
    1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

    4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

    5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

    6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.



    Wiremu: What is seen here?

    Manu Iti: It appears that taking something which was obviously meant one way, and forcing it to mean something else...is achieved through how one wants to express ones self...

    Wiremu: Yes.
    All it takes is a willingness to remain as one is, in the face of that which calls for change.


    Christian: So let's look at the text line 5.

    The Script :
    5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


    Christian: Clearly, in context, we are meant to judge.

    Wiremu: I think that perhaps the Christian conflates meanings out of context.
    Presuming one has dealt with ones own 'eye-beam' - this makes it easier to potentially assist others in removing the 'mote' from their own eye...not by judgment, but through something else entirely.

    You see, the help one can give another is based upon personal knowledge of how one first removed judgment from the equation.
    Simply put in context - it is the act of judging which makes one a hypocrite. Cease judging and one ceases to be a hypocrite.


    Manu Iti: So how did it get to the point where that which calls for change becomes overrun by that which wills to remain unchanged?

    Wiremu: Force. One simply commandeers.
Turning in Callum's direction, I continue;

Manu Iti: That will do for now. Do you agree with Wiremu's evaluation of the example he gives here, Callum? That Perhaps the Christian is looking for loopholes, even if subconsciously doing so. Do you agree that this is plausible, due to the expression "Clearly, in context, Christians are meant to judge." in relation to the Statement "Do Not Judge."?

After asking my question, I continue for a moment reading on in silence, and then close the booklet and place it on the seat beside me.

Then I call The Ruru...

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Post #19

Post by The Tanager »

The Master ColdFire beside me has now lost his fire light. He stands up and stretches, and I hear the sound of twigs snapping within a fire as though the fire is coursing through his insides still. He then pulls out a book of poetry and starts reading through the pages.

Callum: Yes, I agree with Wiremu's evaluation of the possible search for a loophole by the Christian he relates. That seems to be the only part of Wiremu's evaluation that you seem to be asking about, although we could also talk about Christian's and Wiremu's evaluation of the script itself.

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Post #20

Post by William »

Callum's reply is adequate, although he gives the impression within it, that he would like to also talk about Christian's and Wiremu's evaluation of the script itself.
That seems beside the point right now as it would only serve to go off on a tangent.

It is enough for me to know Callum's position on the matter.


Manu Iti: Thanks for that Callum. For now, my interest is primarily in establishing an understanding of your position on the matter, so talking of Wiremu's or other Christians, or even The Tanagers position on the matter is of less a present concern to me.
It is your understanding which I am attempting to work with right now, not theirs.


I change my bodies position to face entirely in Callum's direction. I lift the booklet from where I had placed it and then flick through the pages looking for something Wiremu showed me. I find it and prepare to read it out to Callum.

Manu Iti: I just want to read you this information and then ask you a question about it.

I look down at the picture of the parchment in the booklet and begin reading out the glowing words written on it.
I decide to read it out as one would read out a poem.


Manu Iti:
  • "It's still not clear to me.
    You think it should be clear but it isn't.
    You say issues of right and wrong stem from Judgmentalism.
    I'm okay with that.
    You are Judgmental in that sense.
    You think certain things are right and certain things are wrong.
    Mani Iti speaks from that perspective as well.
    Everyone does.
    I don't get this guideline against being Judgmental.
    Is it wanting everyone to believe Truth is subjective?
    If so, then that is still a judgment concerning right and wrong."


I finish reading out the Script and then close the Booklet and kiss the fabric of its cover before returning it to the seat beside me.

Again I direct my attention fully in Callum's direction.


Manu Iti: My question is for you personally Callum. What do you think of that observation I read out?

A barely discernible flutter of wings reaches my ear, and before my eye can respond, The Ruru again lands upon Her Staff - almost magically appearing from nowhere ...not that such a place exists - and ruffles Her feathers before setting her gaze upon me and giving me a slow blink.

I check out my Word2Number Calculator

Manu Iti: Let's see now...
"It's still not clear to me" equals 261 as does "Universal Belief System"...that's interesting in context of the 'poem' where the line "Everyone does," equals 63...as do...


I see there is quiet the list...I read it out...

Manu Iti:
  • The bible
    Eleven
    Gentle
    Divine
    Try
    Sure
    DeJaVu
    Masks
    Avatar
    Gentle
    Remind
    Besides
    Degrees
    El Shaddai

Very interesting co-relations happening there!


I want Callum to hear this stuff...and any other Invisible Entity lurking around hereabouts.
I glance over to Penny Tupence and smile at Her.


The Ruru: Innocent Sovereign...

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