My Lord and my God - Shema Trinity

[Wootah]

Thomas says, "My Lord and my God."

https://biblehub.com/text/john/20-28.htm

What did he mean to claim about Jesus?

[brianbbs67]

verse 14 is often used as license to teach that all animals are now clean and suitable for food. If we examine the context, we discover that in verse 15, Paul is speaking of what God’s Word already defines as food according to Leviticus 11. The word used for “food� is “broma.�

Strongs:
G1033 broma bro'-mah from the base of G977;
food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law.

Unclean animals have never been considered food (“broma�), regardless of what unbelievers outside of God’s Word might consider food.

Paul is not entertaining a debate whether unclean animals, according to Leviticus 11, are now suddenly clean and can be defined as food (“broma�). Paul is settling a debate whether Biblically clean food can be made unclean in ways not mentioned in Scripture. In other word's not washing one's hands does not make your food unclean like Jesus was confronting in Mark 7.

There have always been groups of Christians who believe that in order to honor God’s authority in the Old Testament we must continue to obey the food laws and other ceremonial laws, lest we be found in disobedience. There is a good impulse in this and a profoundly bad impulse in this. The good impulse is the desire to obey God. There’s nothing wrong with that. That belongs to what it means to be a Christian. The bad impulse is the failure to obey Christ who teaches us how to obey God in regard to the Old Testament. The bad impulse fails to see in Jesus the kind of fulfillment and the kind of accomplishment of the Law and the Prophets that God always intended in the Old Testament as the consummation and the end of the ceremonial laws. So, the effort to hold on to the prohibition of eating pork is, in effect, a refusal to submit to God’s plan for the fulfillment of the Law in Jesus.

The prohibition of certain foods as unclean was a temporary part of God’s way of making Israel distant or distinct from the nations of the world. This is what Jesus is saying in Mark 7:15–19. With the coming of Christ, dramatic changes take place in the way God governs his people, because we are no longer a political-ethnic people like the Jews were, but a global people from every tribe and language and ethnicity and race. If a person chooses not to eat certain foods for various nutritional reasons or preference, that is no big deal. We are free to eat or not to eat. But the moment that abstinence is invested with biblical authority as the path of obedience of maturity or salvation, a line is crossed that contradicts Christ and the gospel. Paul says in Colossians 2:16–17, “Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food or drink. . . . These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.� When you have Christ as your Treasure and your all-satisfying food, you are free to eat any kind of food... or not.

We are not bound to the ceremonial food laws of Leviticus anymore. Pure and simple. If we disagree on that, then I'm fine with that.

Grace and peace to you, Brian.

3 or 4 years ago, I would have fully agreed with you. After an exhaustive study of the word and Christ's commands, I find him nullifying None of the Torah. He called out the Jews for their traditions and told them to follow God's instructions alone. Torah, means instructions. They are God's instructions for all who wish to follow him. "there shall be one law for you and the stranger who sojourns with you".

That said, the law can save no one. It was never set up as a path of salvation. It was just rules for living here and being blessed. "I present to you a blessing and a curse". Blessing if you obey and curse if you don't.

Christ is not lost or forgotten. He is our mediator. He is the way the marriage contract/covenant was able to be renewed with Israel(gentiles). Praise God for this. For once we lost in this world without God and hope. Now we are welcomed into the covenants of Israel.

Read thru the 4 gospels and write down everything Christ commands. He commands the law. He came to complete it not abolish it. Till heaven and earth pass and ALL the prophets come to pass.

So, you follow God's instructions out of respect and obedience. Not because they can save you from anything, because they can't.

In short, it seems Christians misinterpet Paul and hold him above christ. Because they interpret Paul to teach against the law which would be against everything Christ taught. Jesus was the Word made flesh. Torah with personification. Dueteronomy 13 tells us to reject any preacher that speaks against God. So with the popular understanding of Paul, we should reject him as false. I don't. I believe he is misunderstood greatly.

[tam]

Peace to you both!

[Replying to post 138 by brianbbs67]

Read thru the 4 gospels and write down everything Christ commands. He commands the law. He came to complete it not abolish it. Till heaven and earth pass and ALL the prophets come to pass.

I am not sure this (at least not on its own) will work, brian (peace to you!) Not every word Christ said was meant for every person in every time.


You have to remember that Christ was speaking to a people who were yet under the old covenant and the law that went with it. The new covenant had not yet been established. Christ could not teach people to disregard the law of a covenant that they were yet under.


The law of new covenant is love (and it is indeed written upon the heart). Love is the fulfillment of the law; love is the law of God (which makes sense, considering that God is love - so too would be the law that comes from Him). Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind; love your neighbor as yourself; love your enemies; love one another just as Christ has loved us. Love gives to those in need; love feeds the hungry; love forgives; love clothes the naked. When people of the nations (non-Christians) also do these things naturally (even unknowingly doing good to Christ by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), they prove that the requirements of the law are written upon their hearts as well.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

3 or 4 years ago, I would have fully agreed with you.

Well, I think you should again. Maybe you will someday, either on this side of glory or the next.

After an exhaustive study of the word and Christ's commands, I find him nullifying None of the Torah.

Who said He nullified any of it? Not me...

That said, the law can save no one. It was never set up as a path of salvation. Christ is not lost or forgotten. He is our mediator. Now we are welcomed into the covenants of Israel.

Sure. Nothing I have said refutes this.

He came to complete it not abolish it.

Well, He cam to fulfill it on our behalf. But sure.

So, you follow God's instructions out of respect and obedience. Not because they can save you from anything, because they can't.

We are not bound to the ceremonial or civil law anymore. It is not "abolished," but we are not bound to it. Love God and love your neighbor; in these two commands is the whole law.

In short, it seems Christians misinterpet Paul and hold him above Christ. Because they interpret Paul to teach against the law...

Don't think this is true at all. Paul is very clear about the law. We no longer need a tutor. But we do need it to show us our need for Christ.

So with the popular understanding of Paul, we should reject him as false. I don't. I believe he is misunderstood greatly.

Yeah, that may be, so stop it.

Grace and peace to you, Brian.

[brianbbs67]

Peace to you both!

[Replying to post 138 by brianbbs67]

Read thru the 4 gospels and write down everything Christ commands. He commands the law. He came to complete it not abolish it. Till heaven and earth pass and ALL the prophets come to pass.

I am not sure this (at least not on its own) will work, brian (peace to you!) Not every word Christ said was meant for every person in every time.


You have to remember that Christ was speaking to a people who were yet under the old covenant and the law that went with it. The new covenant had not yet been established. Christ could not teach people to disregard the law of a covenant that they were yet under.


The law of new covenant is love (and it is indeed written upon the heart). Love is the fulfillment of the law; love is the law of God (which makes sense, considering that God is love - so too would be the law that comes from Him). Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind; love your neighbor as yourself; love your enemies; love one another just as Christ has loved us. Love gives to those in need; love feeds the hungry; love forgives; love clothes the naked. When people of the nations (non-Christians) also do these things naturally (even unknowingly doing good to Christ by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), they prove that the requirements of the law are written upon their hearts as well.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Peace to you, Tam. It was Hebrew tradition to sum up the law in as few statements as possible. This is what Christ did. In fact he used the Shema. Duet. 6:4+ to do it. "hear O Israel, the Lord is one" This negated zero of the law. This is the problem people have with the bible. They don't like to be told what to eat or do.

If the new covenant was in affect, we would never debate a thing, here. All would know the truth and there would be no arguments. It would be written on our hearts. We would not have to search or debate. We would have it. Just the fact we debate, shows the new covenant is not here. If it was, there would be nothing to debate or argue.

[JehovahsWitness]

If the new covenant was in affect, we would never debate a thing, here. All would know the truth and there would be no arguments. It would be written on our hearts. We would not have to search or debate. We would have it. Just the fact we debate, shows the new covenant is not here. If it was, there would be nothing to debate or argue.

Who is the "we" you refer to here. True Christians do not debate this between themselves, they know what the Law of Christ is, it's written in their hearts. However there is no harmony between light and darkness so debate exist. Jesus debated with the pharisees, does this prove he didnt have the truth in his heart?

One cannot prove that there is no light because those in the dark are bumping into the furniture.

[brianbbs67]

verse 14 is often used as license to teach that all animals are now clean and suitable for food. If we examine the context, we discover that in verse 15, Paul is speaking of what God’s Word already defines as food according to Leviticus 11. The word used for “food� is “broma.�

Strongs:
G1033 broma bro'-mah from the base of G977;
food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law.

Unclean animals have never been considered food (“broma�), regardless of what unbelievers outside of God’s Word might consider food.

Paul is not entertaining a debate whether unclean animals, according to Leviticus 11, are now suddenly clean and can be defined as food (“broma�). Paul is settling a debate whether Biblically clean food can be made unclean in ways not mentioned in Scripture. In other word's not washing one's hands does not make your food unclean like Jesus was confronting in Mark 7.

There have always been groups of Christians who believe that in order to honor God’s authority in the Old Testament we must continue to obey the food laws and other ceremonial laws, lest we be found in disobedience. There is a good impulse in this and a profoundly bad impulse in this. The good impulse is the desire to obey God. There’s nothing wrong with that. That belongs to what it means to be a Christian. The bad impulse is the failure to obey Christ who teaches us how to obey God in regard to the Old Testament. The bad impulse fails to see in Jesus the kind of fulfillment and the kind of accomplishment of the Law and the Prophets that God always intended in the Old Testament as the consummation and the end of the ceremonial laws. So, the effort to hold on to the prohibition of eating pork is, in effect, a refusal to submit to God’s plan for the fulfillment of the Law in Jesus.

The prohibition of certain foods as unclean was a temporary part of God’s way of making Israel distant or distinct from the nations of the world. This is what Jesus is saying in Mark 7:15–19. With the coming of Christ, dramatic changes take place in the way God governs his people, because we are no longer a political-ethnic people like the Jews were, but a global people from every tribe and language and ethnicity and race. If a person chooses not to eat certain foods for various nutritional reasons or preference, that is no big deal. We are free to eat or not to eat. But the moment that abstinence is invested with biblical authority as the path of obedience of maturity or salvation, a line is crossed that contradicts Christ and the gospel. Paul says in Colossians 2:16–17, “Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food or drink. . . . These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.� When you have Christ as your Treasure and your all-satisfying food, you are free to eat any kind of food... or not.

We are not bound to the ceremonial food laws of Leviticus anymore. Pure and simple. If we disagree on that, then I'm fine with that.

Grace and peace to you, Brian.

Peace to you too. Where does God say its temporary? When is something waning, not still there?

Where is the command from God ending His law, He said was forever? You are sounding like a proponent of no rules whatsoever. DO the decalogue apply?

My point is some seem to teach we can do whatever we want and Jesus will wipe it out. That does not seem Godly. To draw near to God, we actually have to draw near.

[PinSeeker]

Where does God say its temporary?

Through Paul:

• "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." (Galatians 3:23-25)

When is something waning, not still there?

It is.

Where is the command from God ending His law, He said was forever?

Never did I say He "ended His law."

You are sounding like a proponent of no rules whatsoever.

Surely not my intention.

DO the decalogue apply?

Yes, but as I said before, the law for us today is a tutor that we no longer need because we have Christ (Galatians 3). And if we have Christ, if we are truly Christians, then we have the Spirit, who causes us to walk in God's statutes (Ezekiel 36). We are not bound to the Ceremonial or Civil Law anymore, because it's purpose was to teach the Israelites to love God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength in a "training wheels" sort of way. But Christ has shown us how to truly do that, and we do not need these "training wheels" anymore.

My point is some seem to teach we can do whatever we want and Jesus will wipe it out. That does not seem Godly.

Right, that would be what we call antinomianism. Which, you're right, is not Godly at all. However, legalism is not Godly, either. It's a big subject.

To draw near to God, we actually have to draw near.

Right. Absolutely. But one of God's promises is that those who seek will indeed find. He makes that happen.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you, brian!

Peace to you both!

[Replying to post 138 by brianbbs67]

Read thru the 4 gospels and write down everything Christ commands. He commands the law. He came to complete it not abolish it. Till heaven and earth pass and ALL the prophets come to pass.

I am not sure this (at least not on its own) will work, brian (peace to you!) Not every word Christ said was meant for every person in every time.


You have to remember that Christ was speaking to a people who were yet under the old covenant and the law that went with it. The new covenant had not yet been established. Christ could not teach people to disregard the law of a covenant that they were yet under.


The law of new covenant is love (and it is indeed written upon the heart). Love is the fulfillment of the law; love is the law of God (which makes sense, considering that God is love - so too would be the law that comes from Him). Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind; love your neighbor as yourself; love your enemies; love one another just as Christ has loved us. Love gives to those in need; love feeds the hungry; love forgives; love clothes the naked. When people of the nations (non-Christians) also do these things naturally (even unknowingly doing good to Christ by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), they prove that the requirements of the law are written upon their hearts as well.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Peace to you, Tam. It was Hebrew tradition to sum up the law in as few statements as possible. This is what Christ did.

Thank you for your wish of peace, and peace also to you.

Christ had some words to say about tradition, did He not? Their traditions were traditions of men; their traditions nullified the word of God. My Lord did not put stock in tradition.

In fact he used the Shema. Duet. 6:4+ to do it. "hear O Israel, the Lord is one" This negated zero of the law. This is the problem people have with the bible. They don't like to be told what to eat or do.

But I have no problem being told by my Lord Jaheshua what to eat or to do. So it is not about that at all. Not for me.

If the new covenant was in affect, we would never debate a thing, here. All would know the truth and there would be no arguments. It would be written on our hearts. We would not have to search or debate. We would have it. Just the fact we debate, shows the new covenant is not here. If it was, there would be nothing to debate or argue.

But - as my Lord has just reminded me so as to share with you - not everyone is part of the new covenant! Just as not everyone was part of the old covenant! Those things written about the people who are part of the new covenant apply to them - to the people who are part of the new covenant.


The new covenant is indeed in effect (it has been in effect since Christ instituted the new covenant almost two thousand years ago) - and those who are part of the new covenant DO have the law written upon their hearts. That law - God's law - is love. That is the law that is written upon the hearts of those who are in the new covenant.


Jeremiah 31:31-34

“The days are coming,� declares [the LORD]
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]�
declares [the LORD].
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,� declares [the LORD]
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,�
declares [the LORD].
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.�






Whoever is teaching you that the new covenant has not been instituted is in error, dear brian. Christ Himself stated that His was the blood of the new covenant. This is why are to test all things; and hold all things up to the Light that is Christ Jaheshua.




May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear the truth of this matter from THE Truth: Christ Jaheshua. May you also hear as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[brianbbs67]

Where does God say its temporary?

Through Paul:

• "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." (Galatians 3:23-25)

When is something waning, not still there?

It is.

Where is the command from God ending His law, He said was forever?

Never did I say He "ended His law."

You are sounding like a proponent of no rules whatsoever.

Surely not my intention.

DO the decalogue apply?

Yes, but as I said before, the law for us today is a tutor that we no longer need because we have Christ (Galatians 3). And if we have Christ, if we are truly Christians, then we have the Spirit, who causes us to walk in God's statutes (Ezekiel 36). We are not bound to the Ceremonial or Civil Law anymore, because it's purpose was to teach the Israelites to love God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength in a "training wheels" sort of way. But Christ has shown us how to truly do that, and we do not need these "training wheels" anymore.

My point is some seem to teach we can do whatever we want and Jesus will wipe it out. That does not seem Godly.

Right, that would be what we call antinomianism. Which, you're right, is not Godly at all. However, legalism is not Godly, either. It's a big subject.

To draw near to God, we actually have to draw near.

Right. Absolutely. But one of God's promises is that those who seek will indeed find. He makes that happen.

Grace and peace to you.

To your quote of Paul:

He is explaining to them that they have learned the law and therefore were no longer students. They had reached the "age" of accountability. Who learns any subject and then ignores what they have learned?"And falls from their secure position?

I agree we are not subject to any part of the 613 laws which have to do with the Temple or a Theocracy, because we have neither. The rest should be carried out as best we can out of respect for God.

Salvation comes only from God. The law can save no one and was never intended to do so. It is God's instructions for His people on this Earth. If we love Him, we will do His Commands.

I am glad to hear the 10 commandments , the ones spoken by God, Himself, before all Israel, still apply in your view. Why do most ignore the fourth one? And thus sin.

[brianbbs67]

Peace to you, brian!

Peace to you both!

[Replying to post 138 by brianbbs67]

Read thru the 4 gospels and write down everything Christ commands. He commands the law. He came to complete it not abolish it. Till heaven and earth pass and ALL the prophets come to pass.

I am not sure this (at least not on its own) will work, brian (peace to you!) Not every word Christ said was meant for every person in every time.


You have to remember that Christ was speaking to a people who were yet under the old covenant and the law that went with it. The new covenant had not yet been established. Christ could not teach people to disregard the law of a covenant that they were yet under.


The law of new covenant is love (and it is indeed written upon the heart). Love is the fulfillment of the law; love is the law of God (which makes sense, considering that God is love - so too would be the law that comes from Him). Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind; love your neighbor as yourself; love your enemies; love one another just as Christ has loved us. Love gives to those in need; love feeds the hungry; love forgives; love clothes the naked. When people of the nations (non-Christians) also do these things naturally (even unknowingly doing good to Christ by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), they prove that the requirements of the law are written upon their hearts as well.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Peace to you, Tam. It was Hebrew tradition to sum up the law in as few statements as possible. This is what Christ did.

Thank you for your wish of peace, and peace also to you.

Christ had some words to say about tradition, did He not? Their traditions were traditions of men; their traditions nullified the word of God. My Lord did not put stock in tradition.

In fact he used the Shema. Duet. 6:4+ to do it. "hear O Israel, the Lord is one" This negated zero of the law. This is the problem people have with the bible. They don't like to be told what to eat or do.

But I have no problem being told by my Lord Jaheshua what to eat or to do. So it is not about that at all. Not for me.

If the new covenant was in affect, we would never debate a thing, here. All would know the truth and there would be no arguments. It would be written on our hearts. We would not have to search or debate. We would have it. Just the fact we debate, shows the new covenant is not here. If it was, there would be nothing to debate or argue.

But - as my Lord has just reminded me so as to share with you - not everyone is part of the new covenant! Just as not everyone was part of the old covenant! Those things written about the people who are part of the new covenant apply to them - to the people who are part of the new covenant.


The new covenant is indeed in effect (it has been in effect since Christ instituted the new covenant almost two thousand years ago) - and those who are part of the new covenant DO have the law written upon their hearts. That law - God's law - is love. That is the law that is written upon the hearts of those who are in the new covenant.


Jeremiah 31:31-34

“The days are coming,� declares [the LORD]
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]�
declares [the LORD].
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,� declares [the LORD]
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,�
declares [the LORD].
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.�






Whoever is teaching you that the new covenant has not been instituted is in error, dear brian. Christ Himself stated that His was the blood of the new covenant. This is why are to test all things; and hold all things up to the Light that is Christ Jaheshua.




May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear the truth of this matter from THE Truth: Christ Jaheshua. May you also hear as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Christ did not like tradtions of men that negated the law of God. His example of summarizing the law, did not violate the law, did it?

You are right that not everyone is in the new or old covenant. It is Judah and Israel. Judah and Israel are not in harmony, nor see God's law as the same. Christians disagree greatly from denomination to denomination. How can the law be written in everyone's heart that believes in God and Yeshua, if they don't agree???

This is why I say the new covenant is not fully in effect. If it was, no evangelism or doctrinal arguements would be valid as all believers would believe the same. Because the law would be written on our hearts. That's like the operating system in a computer thru which all is processed. We have not gotten there yet.

Christ did request or give a new command. As often as you gather, do this in remembrance of me.

I challenge you to find where Jesus announced he was negating Moses and replacing it with the mysterious christian law no one can fully define. He said the opposite. Not one jot ot tittle would pass until all the law AND prophets came to pass and heaven and earth were no more. This has not happened.

This is the error of dispensationalism.

Again, peace to you.