Do Atheists on this forum support Communism, North Korea etc

Two hot topics for the price of one

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If you are atheist, do you sympathize with Communism?

yes
1
10%
no
9
90%
 
Total votes: 10

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Tcg
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Post #21

Post by Tcg »

bjs wrote:
This is clearly false. The majority of people in the world today, and throughout history, are theist. Theism is the common view. If there is such a thing as “common sense� then atheism is in opposition to it.

You are conflating "common view" and "common sense." They are far from the same.

Yes, belief in god/gods is quite common, but as Will Rogers said, “Common sense ain't common.�


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


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Post #22

Post by 2Dbunk »

bjs wrote:
2Dbunk wrote: I respectfully refer you to the USA's negotiations with the Barbary Coast's Bashaw Sidi Haji Abdrahaman in 1786 at Tripoli. None other than Thomas Jefferson and John Adams hoped for some reconciliation as ambassadors at large, skilled in diplomacy. Their hopes were dashed when the bashaw answered Adam's question "How the Barbary states could justify war upon nations who have done them no injury?" (The previous year, Algieria had captured and enslaved the crews of two American merchant vessels -- they would be held another ten years.)

The Bashaw's answer: "All nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave." I believe there is an element of violence and evil in that intercourse between those high representatives of state. There are many other examples of your "acceptable" dichotomy through the years, namely 9/11, mid-eastern beheadings, etc., all in the name of the "Prophet."
But we are letting our hypothetical Muslim define Islam. He is free to say that he Bashaw misrepresented Islam and that Jefferson and Adams, for all their other positive qualities, did not understand Islam.
This is NOT a hypothetical example -- these ministers consulted with each other representing their respective nations with the highest understanding of the subject cultures. Jefferson had read the Qu'ran . . . possessed a copy of it. He and Madison were students of the world's cultures, circumnavigating them for input into our Constitution, in order to avoid the pitfalls that other nations couldn't or purposely didn't avoid in their respective governances.
2Dbunk wrote: Bjs, atheism and agnosticism are ALL ABOUT commonsense!! By definition it is the logical way to proceed (putting away superstition, hearsay, rote reaction, etc.).
bjs wrote:
This is clearly false. The majority of people in the world today, and throughout history, are theist. Theism is the common view. If there is such a thing as “common sense� then atheism is in opposition to it.
I didn't think you would agree, but Tcg is correct 'world view' and 'common sense' are entirely two different things.

And yes, you are correct, most of the world is theist and look at the shape it is in! Most of the politicians are theists (or say they are) and look at the messes they create with their double-standards. You are entitled to follow mob rule but you should read what Twain and others have said about 'mob mentality.'
What good is truth if its value is not more than unproven, handed-down faith?

One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley

Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.

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Post #23

Post by bjs »

2Dbunk wrote: This is NOT a hypothetical example -- these ministers consulted with each other representing their respective nations with the highest understanding of the subject cultures. Jefferson had read the Qu'ran . . . possessed a copy of it. He and Madison were students of the world's cultures, circumnavigating them for input into our Constitution, in order to avoid the pitfalls that other nations couldn't or purposely didn't avoid in their respective governances.
Yes, and Karl Marx, Jean-Paul Sartre and David Hume were among the most intelligent and knowledgeable non-theists of their generations. They defined atheism in fundamentally different way that you and Bust Nak have.

I have no issue with your defining atheism as you see fit, and in way that opposes such mental giants, but if you are going to do so then you need to grant everyone the right to define their worldview as they see fit no matter who disagrees with them.
2Dbunk wrote: I didn't think you would agree, but Tcg is correct 'world view' and 'common sense' are entirely two different things.

And yes, you are correct, most of the world is theist and look at the shape it is in! Most of the politicians are theists (or say they are) and look at the messes they create with their double-standards. You are entitled to follow mob rule but you should read what Twain and others have said about 'mob mentality.'
Personally, I think that there is no such things as common sense because it has no objective standard. You can think that atheism is common sense and I can think that it is a fundamental lack of common sense neither of us have a way showing our view to be correct.

If a common sense exist in any form (and that’s a big “if�) then it would have to be defined by the common understanding of people. I would only use common sense to describe what is virtually universally agreed upon.

Because there is no standard of “common sense,� saying that atheism and agnosticism are ALL ABOUT commonsense is just empty rhetoric.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Post #24

Post by 2Dbunk »

[Replying to post 23 by bjs]
bjs wrote:

Yes, and Karl Marx, Jean-Paul Sartre and David Hume were among the most intelligent and knowledgeable non-theists of their generations. They defined atheism in fundamentally different way that you and Bust Nak have.
I have no issue with your defining atheism as you see fit, and in way that opposes such mental giants, but if you are going to do so then you need to grant everyone the right to define their worldview as they see fit no matter who disagrees with them.

I thought the issue herein was defining Islam, not atheism -- I know that you know what atheism is, so why argue about THAT?
Personally, I think that there is no such things as common sense because it has no objective standard. You can think that atheism is common sense and I can think that it is a fundamental lack of common sense neither of us have a way showing our view to be correct.

If a common sense exist in any form (and that’s a big “if�) then it would have to be defined by the common understanding of people. I would only use common sense to describe what is virtually universally agreed upon.

Because there is no standard of “common sense,� saying that atheism and agnosticism are ALL ABOUT commonsense is just empty rhetoric.
My common sense tells me that it is senseless to continue arguing with you -- good day!
What good is truth if its value is not more than unproven, handed-down faith?

One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley

Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.

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Post #25

Post by Tcg »

bjs wrote:
Yes, and Karl Marx, Jean-Paul Sartre and David Hume were among the most intelligent and knowledgeable non-theists of their generations.
I haven't noticed posts by any of these men on this forum. Odd, given the question asked in this thread is, "Do Atheists on this forum support Communism, North Korea etc."

Perhaps you've lost track of the subject.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Post #26

Post by Bust Nak »

bjs wrote: Yes, and Karl Marx, Jean-Paul Sartre and David Hume were among the most intelligent and knowledgeable non-theists of their generations. They defined atheism in fundamentally different way that you and Bust Nak have.
Are you sure about that? While it's clear that they are anti-theists, it's not so clear how these people defined atheism. Perhaps you could provide some quotes where they are talking about atheism (as opposed to anti-theism?)

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Post #27

Post by Clownboat »

Bjs wrote:Personally, I think that there is no such things as common sense because it has no objective standard. You can think that atheism is common sense and I can think that it is a fundamental lack of common sense neither of us have a way showing our view to be correct.
To the bold.
Perhaps, but we can sure show that your view is nonsensical.

All from the book itself.
Talking donkeys and snakes for starters.
Worldwide floods that didn't take place.
Decomposed bodies reanimating and coming back to life.
A man living in the belly of a whale.

You can pretend that the religious view and the atheistic view are similar, but you would be mistaken. If you disagree with me, please show that I am wrong by pointing to similar things (like talking animals) in atheism so we can honestly compare the two.

To some people, not believing in any of the god concepts available and believing in talking animals may seem comparable. They are not and your attempt to level the playing field has failed as most of our readers should be able to see through what you have done.
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Post #28

Post by Gracchus »

First of all, Stalin and Mao did not commit their atrocities (Which they, like other leaders, would label as "necessities"!) to promote atheism, but to promote economic and political ends. Indeed, the "communism" put in place in Russia and China had all of unreasoning characteristics of religion.

Secondly, North Korea is not a communist state, but a hereditary monarchy.

Religion is dangerous, of course. It is a slippage of cognitive reasoning, enabling all sorts of accessory delusions.

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe anything because it s found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept and live up to it.� --- Buddha Siddhartha Gautama Shakyamuni

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.� --- François-Marie Arouet

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