Jesus and Satan

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Elijah John
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Jesus and Satan

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Regarding the episode of Jesus temptation in the wilderness, he is said to have been alone at the time, no other people with him.

So how does the Gospel Evangelist know what went on there? The dialogue between Jesus and Satan.

Did Jesus recount the event to his apostles, verbatim? Does that sound like something Jesus would do? To tell of his temptations?

Or is it more likely the Gospel Evangelist was taking a bit of literary license. And from a literary standpoint, what was the Evangelist trying to tell us about Jesus and/or his mission?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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ttruscott
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Post #2

Post by ttruscott »

You answer your own question: the skeptic denies the reason for the truth the believer has accepted...iow, of course He told them. No need to make things up to discredit the story.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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William
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Re: Jesus and Satan

Post #3

Post by William »

Elijah John: Did Jesus recount the event to his apostles, verbatim? Does that sound like something Jesus would do? To tell of his temptations?

William: Yes it does sound like something Jesus would do as we are informed that he spoke to his closest followers often and at length and mostly told them things which are not contained within the pages of the Gospel-Script, or anywhere else in the Bible.
Therefore there is no reason why he could not have recounted the events and spoke of Satan and the temptations.


Elijah John: Or is it more likely the Gospel Evangelist was taking a bit of literary license.

William: The Individual is free to interpret how they will...bearing in mind it is best to do so all-inclusively. Don't forget that those same Script tells us that Jesus said more to his followers in private than what we have to go on in the Script.

Elijah John: And from a literary standpoint, what was the Evangelist trying to tell us about Jesus and/or his mission?

William: That Jesus had his own 'demons' to deal with, and dealt with them.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Jesus and Satan

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:
Did Jesus recount the event to his apostles, verbatim? Does that sound like something Jesus would do? To tell of his temptations?

Can't see why not? I'd think that the episode would be very important in their spiritual education. Of course since the bible is inspired of God, He could have informed them by divine revelation, but I can't imagine Jesus failing to recount the episode himself.


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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tcg
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Post #5

Post by Tcg »

ttruscott wrote: You answer your own question: the skeptic denies the reason for the truth the believer has accepted...iow, of course He told them. No need to make things up to discredit the story.

It should be equally true that there is no need to make things up to credit the story. Given that you indeed did need to make things up to support it is quite telling.

Nothing in the text supports your claim: "of course he told them."


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

Elijah John
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Post #6

Post by Elijah John »

Tcg wrote:
Nothing in the text supports your claim: "of course he told them."


Tcg
And I think that is the key. If he told them, the text would have told us that too.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

liamconnor
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Post #7

Post by liamconnor »

It is a very good question.

It is not logically impossible that Jesus told the disciples of the incident; but it is remarkable that no narrative conveys the telling, as the narrative in all the gospels convey other information: as when Jesus explains parables or what not.

However, it is not impossible that some might have noticed Jesus withdrew from society for a time, and then reentered and begin announcing his message. Perhaps later traditions sought to find significance in this early solitude. Perhaps Jesus himself told some (surely he was not so much a recluse that a month alone in the desert would not have been noticed by someone!!) that he was in the desert and even vaguely mentioned how he was tempted. Out of such a narrative might arise the gospel traditions.

Mark's version is quite sparse; Luke and Matthew are almost identical except for order. There does seem to be some development.

Such matters, in my experience, affect people according to their presuppositions, which are:

1) Fundamentalist Christians (or inerrantists) cling to explanations that assign the most detailed accounts to Jesus' own words. They feel that unless he is the source of it all, to every detail, their entire faith is in jeopardy.

2) Rational Christians have no problem accepting that the gospel writers interpreted the traditions of Jesus handed them: they have no problem accepting the theory that the historical tradition moved from: a) Jesus historically retired into the wilderness for reflection; this was historically noticed by some; 2) Jesus historically, but vaguely, talked of his temptation; 3) post resurrection, his disciples retold and interpreted (that is, gave significance to) their stories of him and the stories he told; 4) in light of his resurrection, they saw him as the final Messiah of Israel and the world; they regarded his time in the desert as echoing Israel's time in the wilderness. They filled in his own testimony that he was tempted with allusions to Israel's temptations in the wilderness, as recorded in Exodus and Numbers.

3) Skeptics are basically the negative side of Fundamentalists: they treat the bible as inerrant, and when they find something that doesn't fit inerrancy, they attack it.


It should be noticed that both Fundamentalists and Skeptics here are non-historical and, in my opinion, not rational.

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Tcg
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Re: Jesus and Satan

Post #8

Post by Tcg »

Elijah John wrote:
Or is it more likely the Gospel Evangelist was taking a bit of literary license. And from a literary standpoint, what was the Evangelist trying to tell us about Jesus and/or his mission?
Like the rites in ancient cultures where boys pass a test of bravery to become warriors, this was Jesus' rite of passage. He is no longer the carpenter, or carpenter's son depending on which tale you follow, he is now a hero who has faced Satan himself and proven himself the victor.

This marks the initiation of his ministry and the certification that he has the authority to take on such a task. This story doesn't need to be literally true for it to perform this literary function.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

Elijah John
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Re: Jesus and Satan

Post #9

Post by Elijah John »

Tcg wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Or is it more likely the Gospel Evangelist was taking a bit of literary license. And from a literary standpoint, what was the Evangelist trying to tell us about Jesus and/or his mission?
Like the rites in ancient cultures where boys pass a test of bravery to become warriors, this was Jesus' rite of passage. He is no longer the carpenter, or carpenter's son depending on which tale you follow, he is now a hero who has faced Satan himself and proven himself the victor.

This marks the initiation of his ministry and the certification that he has the authority to take on such a task. This story doesn't need to be literally true for it to perform this literary function.


Tcg
Well said. And the wilderness episode is also akin to the Native American "vision quest", where the seeker receives a vision of their mission in life, or is tested to prove their worth.

I'm sure there are other possibilities as well, of what the author was attempting to convey about Jesus and his mission.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Post #10

Post by PinSeeker »

Tcg wrote: Nothing in the text supports your claim: "of course he told them."
Agreed.

What we do know is, all Scripture is God-breathed (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, various men wrote different parts of the Bible over a long period of time, and experientially speaking, at least most of what we read were their own words, out of their own heads and from their own pen. But God worked in them so that they would will and work according to His own good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). Therefore, ultimately speaaking, God's words are conveyed and not merely those of the writers. It is possible that Jesus explained what happened and recounted everything in person to Matthew so that Matthew could then relate it to us, but if that were the case, I think Matthew probably have actually written that and thus told us that. What I would say, rather, is that Matthew was able to relate to Jesus's experiences in the desert and His exchange with Satan in the same way that Moses was able to relate to us all the events of, for example, Genesis 1 through 3 -- via the Holy Spirit, Who is the third Person of our triune God, and, spiritually speaking, the breath of God.

Grace and peace to all here.

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