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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:13 am  Question for JWs Reply with quote

Do JW believe in second coming of Jesus?

What verses do you use as evidence?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:06 pm
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2timothy316 wrote:
How is Moses not writing Genesis and Paul not writing Hebrews an interpretation? If a person doesn't believe 2 Tim 3:16. 17 is true than whats the point of wanting to be a Witness at all. So those will be ignored.

No Scripture says that all of Genesis was written by Moses or that any of Hebrews was written by Paul, making the 2 Timothy quote a non sequitur. Those beliefs are therefore not required by inerrancy, which means that they're human tradition.
2timothy316 wrote:
As far as evolution is concerned if a person teaches others that life came by accident and not by creation then they would be removed from the congregation. The Bible doesn't go into detail how life was created just that it was created.

If God created the rules of the game such that human beings were a necessary outcome of a process that merely appears to us to involve randomness (or "by accident," as you say), then that also seems consistent with an inerrant (if heavily allegorical) reading of Genesis. If the Bible, as you say, "doesn't go into detail" about how life was created, then the exact details are human tradition again.
2timothy316 wrote:
Acts says "abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood." There is no mention anywhere else in the Bible where these things are allowed in another form.

Nor is there specific prohibition against any use other than the eating of blood. The reason God gave against eating blood is that the "life" is in the blood. After slaughtering an animal, one must return that life to God rather than consuming it as mere food. I think it within the spirit of the commandment to treat the life within the blood as life as a transfusion surely must.
2timothy316 wrote:
The Bible says abstain so we abstain and if a person is unrepentant in the improper use of blood than they would be disfellowshipped for willful breaking a commandment. We do not search for loopholes in defying Jehovah by making personal interpretations.

Now you're question-begging. Use can only be "improper" if it doesn't revere and cherish the life within the blood, which I think use for transfusion must. You and the Faithful and Discreet Slave may disagree with me, but that's a disagreement between human beings with neither side obviously disagreeing with the words of Scripture.
2timothy316 wrote:
If a person refuses the Bible's prophecy in Daniel 4:1, 10-16 that Jesus became king in 1914 then yes that person would be removed from the congregation.

Quote:
Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all the peoples, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth: Peace be multiplied unto you.

Thus were the visions of my head upon my bed: I saw, and, behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and the height thereof was great. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth. The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was food for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the birds of the heavens dwelt in the branches thereof, and all flesh was fed from it. I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and a holy one came down from heaven. He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off its branches, shake off its leaves, and scatter its fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from its branches. Nevertheless leave the stump of its roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven: and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth: let his heart be changed from man’s, and let a beast’s heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Seems straightforward. Are you sure you meant those verses?

2timothy316 wrote:
Take note I didn't quote a single WBTS publication.

I also note you haven't made a particularly strong case.

Now, perhaps you noted that the last three of those examples have been interpreted very differently by the Faithful and Discreet Slave in the past. If those doctrines are as straightforward as you'd have me believe, then why would such different interpretations be possible by such well-intentioned and learned men?

2timothy316 wrote:
The Bible interprets the Bible. It's the only thing we have found that is reliable. Those that do not trust the Bible shouldn't want to be in a religion where the Bible is the center all instruction and direction. 2 Timothy 3:16 says that the scriptures are for setting things straight. If a person doesn't believe this then they are free to move on to a group that doesn't either.

And as I've pointed out, one can profess the above doctrines and still claim with complete honesty to be treating scripture, not only faithfully, but as inerrant.

The overall point that I wish to make is that even though you claimed that statements in the Watchtower aren't treated as inspired by God, they can still be considered requirements for salvation.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:45 am
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[Replying to post 11 by Difflugia]

This is not a debating subforum, you asked which scriptures we use and Tim provided you with which scriptures we use (Genesis , Hebrews , 2 Timothy... ). Whether we use those scriptures is not debatable it's a demonstratable fact. If you don't feel those scriptures are valid or don't for whatever reason want to use them in your belief system (if you have one) I suggest you don't become one of Jehovah's Witnesses. If you would like to debate the relevance of parts of the bible you might like to consider going over to a C&A and posting a thread, I'm sure someone on the world wide web will respond.

Was there anything else you wanted to ask us about the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses?




JW


Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:00 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:52 am
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[Replying to post 11 by Difflugia]

My post is not to convince you. You asked about JW believes, where they come from and why we believe them. You can accept as what posted as true or reject it, it is none of my concern. Also, if you're trying to convince me of your beliefs you can stop right here, I'm not interested. I have already proven to myself the Bible is the word of God and satisfied all my doubts about the Bible. I can't do that for you. We are all responsible for our own faith. Have a good day!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:17 am
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Difflugia wrote:


The overall point that I wish to make is that even though you claimed that statements in the Watchtower aren't treated as inspired by God, they can still be considered requirements for salvation.

Perhaps one day that could be true. Take into consideration the account of Rahab. (Joshua 2:1-22, 6:17)

The spies told Rahab what to do in order to save herself and her entire family. Yet these instructions were not inspired from Jehovah. There is no record of Jehovah telling the spies to give instructions to Rahab to leave a cord outside her window. However Jehovah honored the spies' promise and saved Rahab and all of those that listened to her.

Could this happen in the coming end of this system of things? Maybe a letter could come from the FDS with instructions on how to save ourselves and our entire families. The letter wouldn't be inspired by God but perhaps Jehovah would honor those instructions because of the FDS loyalty to Jesus and my obedience to God's Word at Hebrews 13:17. Will this happen? Who knows? If it does I will remember Rahab and follow her example then follow the instructions given to me even if I know it is not a letter inspired by God.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:06 am
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JehovahsWitness wrote:
This is not a debating subforum...
You're right. My mistake.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:10 am
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2timothy316 wrote:

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Many people mistakenly think that Witnesses think that what is written in the Watchtower is inspired by God. It is not and we do not believe that anything written by any person today is inspired by God. The Bible is the only thing inspired by God. Our knowledge of the Bible is said to get brighter and brighter as time goes on. (Prov. 4:18


It's the church leadership that tells you how to interpret the Bible through the Watchtower, right? According to an article from JW.org, its writings are key to your weekly meetings. It says:

After the discourse, there is a one-hour “Watchtower” Study, in which members of the congregation are welcome to participate in a discussion of an article from the study edition of The Watchtower. This discussion helps us to apply the Bible’s guidance in our lives. The same material is studied in every one of our more than 110,000 congregations earth wide.

The above is from the article here:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/jehovahs-will/meetings-of-jehovahs-witnesses...

Is there any material that you study and use that isn't from the Watchtower or isn't Watchtower-approved? Do you use any material apart from that produced by the Watchtower to study and interpret the Bible?

My concern is that, given the leadership's past mistakes re: prophecy (among other things), the beliefs about prophecy currently held by JWs could be equally wrong.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:47 pm
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Overcomer wrote:


It's the church leadership that tells you how to interpret the Bible through the Watchtower, right?
Quote:
No. The Bible interprets the Bible.

According to an article from JW.org, its writings are key to your weekly meetings. It says:

After the discourse, there is a one-hour “Watchtower” Study, in which members of the congregation are welcome to participate in a discussion of an article from the study edition of The Watchtower. This discussion helps us to apply the Bible’s guidance in our lives. The same material is studied in every one of our more than 110,000 congregations earth wide.

It says the "discussion helps us to apply the Bible’s guidance in our lives." Which is true. I have found many discussions during a Watchtower study helpful.
Quote:

Is there any material that you study and use that isn't from the Watchtower or isn't Watchtower-approved?
There are no lists of approved or unapproved material. Feel free to look for one in our library.
Quote:
Do you use any material apart from that produced by the Watchtower to study and interpret the Bible?
Speaking for myself, to study the Bible yes, interpret the Bible no. I know of no recent publication from the WBTS that attempts to interpret the Bible. We learned our lesson from our past mistakes.
Quote:

My concern is that, given the leadership's past mistakes re: prophecy (among other things), the beliefs about prophecy currently held by JWs could be equally wrong.

We are imperfect people, being wrong is going to happen. Yet I don't freak out over it. There are examples in the Bible of righteous people being wrong and later corrected. When we are wrong, we are corrected. That doesn't mean I distance myself from those I feel are doing their best to live up to Jehovah's laws. Humility, forgiveness, and patience with our fellow brothers and sisters is not optional even when they make a mistake. Holding grunges and being constantly critical is fruitless.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 18: Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:23 pm
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[Replying to post 16 by Overcomer]

Nobody can tell another person what to believe. If an interpretation or explanation of something is presented each individual is free to decide If they find that convincing or not. Our Govening body presents bible based explanations of scripture and we study them as such in our various bible classes or independently. The Watchtower is definitely our main public bible study aid and I beg to differ with Tim, it does indeed offer various interpretations of scripture and prophecy.

Jehovahs Witnesses love the bible and draw on many sources (archaeological, sociological, scientific, zoological, lexical, etc) when studying it, from religious and secular sources, as is evident by an examination of the content of our literature but only Jehovah's Witness literature is used in our religious meetings as they are part of our worship.


Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 19: Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:45 pm
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Overcomer wrote:


My concern is that, given the leadership's past mistakes re: prophecy (among other things), the beliefs about prophecy currently held by JWs could be equally wrong.



Why should that concern you are you thinking about becoming a Jehovah's Witness? Such things don't don't bother me in the slightest and if they were a major concern for the other 8 million witnesses they would probably just leave. My guess is most Witnnesses see past mistakes as being small in relation to the many things Jehovah's have and do get right. My view is our organisation might not be perfect but it's "perfect" for me.

JW

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 20: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:10 am
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JehovahsWitness wrote:

The Watchtower is definitely our main public bible study aid and I beg to differ with Tim, it does indeed offer various interpretations of scripture and prophecy.

Let me clarify. The writers of the Watchtower do not come up with interpretations from their own heads. Not like other religions where they interpret the scriptures to fit their dogma. Like Jesus being given rule in Heaven in 1914 was discovered from the pages of the Bible and not from any human trying to interpret the Bible to fit a religious dogma. While those people might have been spirit led to those scriptures, the interpretation's source was all Jehovah's Word. This is why so many people believe it. Not because it came from the pages of a Watchtower but because even if the Watchtower suddenly stopped all publication that interpretation would still be valid as it's root are in the Bible. Interpretation of the Bible that doesn't come from the Bible just doesn't stand the test of time. We as Witnesses know this all too well and any interpretation found in the Watchtower, the men who write it are not the source of interpretation. If a people would actually read a Watchtower with the scriptures quoted they would see where they get their conclusions. The writers are really quite good at listing their scriptural sources and then it is up to the reader to decide if they want to accept the scriptures listed or not. They can reject what the writer of the WT wrote til the cows come home, but do they reject the scriptures quoted is the real question.

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