Assuming for this topic that there is a God, some questions for debate :*
1) If the Bible has any significant flaws, could you still believe that Jesus is God?
2) Does your belief that Jesus is God depend entriely on the perfection of the Bible?
3) Beyond the Bible, is there any other reason to believe that Jesus is God?
4) Does the Bible even tell us so, that "Jesus is God"?
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* addressed primarily to those who worship Jesus, but also to those who for the sake of argument at least accept the premise that God exists.
If the Bible has any significant flaws..
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- Savant
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If the Bible has any significant flaws..
Post #1 My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
- ttruscott
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Re: If the Bible has any significant flaws..
Post #3Yes. I would first attribute the flaw to a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word. If it can be proven as a true flaw with absolutely NO interpretation being true then I would assume that the flaw was written in on purpose to weed out the tares, those who know theology but not GOD HIMself, from the community of GOD.Elijah John wrote: Assuming for this topic that there is a God, some questions for debate :*
1) If the Bible has any significant flaws, could you still believe that Jesus is God?
Not in the least. It depends entirely on the knowledge of His presence and who He says He is...the bible just fills in why and how.2) Does your belief that Jesus is God depend entriely on the perfection of the Bible?
The ongoing personal connection with HIM spiritually.3) Beyond the Bible, is there any other reason to believe that Jesus is God?
Of course but only in a way that allows others to interpret it as something else. The Bible can be denied; the awareness of His presence with you cannot be denied.4) Does the Bible even tell us so, that "Jesus is God"?
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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- Savant
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Re: If the Bible has any significant flaws..
Post #4[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]
Ted, is it Jesus or the Holy Spirit's presence who you experience? Also either way that is subjective. Is there any objective way to determine whether Jesus is God? The Bible, at best, is ambiguous on the matter.
Ted, is it Jesus or the Holy Spirit's presence who you experience? Also either way that is subjective. Is there any objective way to determine whether Jesus is God? The Bible, at best, is ambiguous on the matter.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
Re: If the Bible has any significant flaws..
Post #5Yes.Elijah John wrote: Assuming for this topic that there is a God, some questions for debate :*
1) If the Bible has any significant flaws, could you still believe that Jesus is God?
No.Elijah John wrote: 2) Does your belief that Jesus is God depend entriely on the perfection of the Bible?
Yes. There are the large number teachings, doctrines, and written accounts which all combine together to make up what we normally call church tradition.Elijah John wrote: 3) Beyond the Bible, is there any other reason to believe that Jesus is God?
Yes, often. The Gospels usually rely on the "show, don't tell" approach to narrative. The Epistles come right out and say it directly.Elijah John wrote: 4) Does the Bible even tell us so, that "Jesus is God"?
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
- Mithrae
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Re: If the Bible has any significant flaws..
Post #7Yes, quite obviously so:Elijah John wrote: 4) Does the Bible even tell us so, that "Jesus is God"?
- John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
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- Savant
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Re: If the Bible has any significant flaws..
Post #8Scholars doubt very much that the GoJ was written by the apostle John. For one thing the Greek was too lofty for a rough Gallilean fisherman. Or is it a case of special pleading, a miracle which made this possible?Mithrae wrote:Yes, quite obviously so:Elijah John wrote: 4) Does the Bible even tell us so, that "Jesus is God"?The fourth gospel of course is the only one which purports to have been written by a disciple of Jesus (which is also supported by earlier and broader attestation of authorship than the other gospels). On the other hand it's also the one which is most overt in its creative liberties and revisionism in the interests of conveying the apostle's theological message.
- John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
- ttruscott
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Re: If the Bible has any significant flaws..
Post #9I am a Trinitarian and I don't always know which divine Person is in attendance, so to speak. Sometimes it is the Holy Spirit, sometimes it is Jesus... I don't often let it make any difference to me as they are all my GOD. Jesus attested to me that He was YHWH and the Holy Spirit attested to me that Jesus was YHWH so what am I to do...my faith is what it is.Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]
Ted, is it Jesus or the Holy Spirit's presence who you experience? Also either way that is subjective. Is there any objective way to determine whether Jesus is God? The Bible, at best, is ambiguous on the matter.
You want objectivity? In a site about spirituality? I dunno.....
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
- Mithrae
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Re: If the Bible has any significant flaws..
Post #10It would hardly be a miracle for someone who had spent all their vocational time for the past forty-odd years communicating their good news to become proficient in the common language of their region Sadly, that quality of argumentation is pretty much par for the course for what I've seen regarding authorship of the fourth gospel, dubious speculation taking priority over the historical evidence of both internal and external attributions of authorship. For the three earlier gospels the first clear attributions come from proto-orthodox Irenaeus c. 180CE, from memory - which is somewhat weak, but not all that bad compared to many other ancient works - whereas the fourth gospel is explicitly attributed to John by multiple disparate sources, the unorthodox Valentinians Ptolemy and Heracleon, a decade or two before Irenaeus; to say nothing of the 'appendix' to the gospel itself explicitly confirming authorship by the beloved disciple much earlier still!Elijah John wrote: Scholars doubt very much that the GoJ was written by the apostle John. For one thing the Greek was too lofty for a rough Gallilean fisherman. Or is it a case of special pleading, a miracle which made this possible?
In any case John's Greek is among the most Semitic/vulgar in the NT, alongside the likes of Mark and Revelation. Some of the concepts may sound lofty, but that hardly implies anything about authorship... and in any case perhaps it's just convoluted, needlessly circular and repetitive to dazzle and befuddle the plebs.