In the OT we have Yahweh playing chase with Adam, getting flustered, bargaining with Satan, telling somebody to kill his son, sending bears to rip up schoolboys and exposing himself to Moses. This picture may have frightened or amused old desert brutes but in a setting of Newtonian dynamics and Bose-Einstein statistics, Yahweh is worse than the pantomime character Widow Twankey.
Would fewer people move to atheism had Yahweh been given some dignity and perhaps described in a way that wasn't the obvious penmanship of primitives?
Or is Yahweh just right for the purpose as he is depicted?
Could Yahweh have been painted better?
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Re: Could Yahweh have been painted better?
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by marco]
When one comes to read the idiotic tale of animals parading into a boat built by a decrepit old man and God flooding the world, it is difficult to conceal a smile. Yet even today, in some parts of the world, people take this tale as fact. Some might assert the boat came to land on a mountain in Turkey.
Surely we can painlessly put Yahweh to rest and prevent children being fed on mythology masquerading as fact.
When one comes to read the idiotic tale of animals parading into a boat built by a decrepit old man and God flooding the world, it is difficult to conceal a smile. Yet even today, in some parts of the world, people take this tale as fact. Some might assert the boat came to land on a mountain in Turkey.
Surely we can painlessly put Yahweh to rest and prevent children being fed on mythology masquerading as fact.
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Post #3
All you are saying is that YHWH and the story of HIS work with mankind is able to be mocked... Since Christ too was mocked, I'd say that there is nothing sacred that cannot be held up to ridicule and mockery but such mockery would seem to say more about those who mock than the lack of solemnity or reverence in the mocked.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Post #4
ttruscott wrote: All you are saying is that YHWH and the story of HIS work with mankind is able to be mocked... Since Christ too was mocked, I'd say that there is nothing sacred that cannot be held up to ridicule and mockery but such mockery would seem to say more about those who mock than the lack of solemnity or reverence in the mocked.
One mocks Yahweh because he is painted as a pantomime character. It is legitimate to laugh at clowns. The instances I have given are examples of high farce, with Yahweh the leading player. It becomes a duty to laugh when the ridiculous is presented as serious fact. Irony is a way of mocking folly out of fashion.
I'm not sure why Jesus was mocked unless it was for the extravagance of his claims. "I'm older than Abraham." That might attract ridicule. But Christ's behaviour is not in the same category of farce as Yahweh's. He is presented as a vulnerable man and he talks accordingly. There's nothing much to mock.
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Re: Could Yahweh have been painted better?
Post #5To begin with I do not support the implication that people need to either believe in Hebrew mythology or become atheists. That idea is already being used by Abrahamic theists to support their religion. Either their God is real or there is no God. That's actually a very bad argument for their theology. There are many other pictures of what a God might be like that are far more intelligent and respectable than Hebrew mythology.marco wrote: Would fewer people move to atheism had Yahweh been given some dignity and perhaps described in a way that wasn't the obvious penmanship of primitives?
The God of Buddhism is already light-years ahead of Yahweh and Allah in terms of being more intelligent and respectable. So it's not necessary to become an atheist just because Hebrew mythology is ignorant and indignant.
If the purpose is to convince the majority of humans to buy into this picture apparently is it "just right" as it does indeed seem to have achieved that goal. Especially if we count all the Abrahamic religions.marco wrote: Or is Yahweh just right for the purpose as he is depicted?
IMHO teaching children that these religions should be considered as reasonable is the same as teaching children to be illogical and reject reason entirely. In fact, the supporters of these religion often even use these religions as reason to reject scientific known facts. It's the epitome of human ignorance if you ask me.marco wrote: Surely we can painlessly put Yahweh to rest and prevent children being fed on mythology masquerading as fact.
These religions teach their children to reject evolution in spite of the overwhelming facts that science has revealed.
These religions teach their children that the earth is only about 6000 years old and that mankind lived alongside dinosaurs. Both of which science has clearly demonstrated to be false claims.
We know for a fact that humans only recently appeared on planet earth and were not around at the time of the dinosaurs.
These religions often teach that their God will come back and that he has a plan for everyone. They may as well be teaching their children that it's reasonable to believe in fairies, Santa Claus, Gnomes, and Leprechauns. They may as well be teaching their children to believe that the story of Peter Pan and Never Never land is a real place makes perfectly rational sense.
These religions represent ignorance on steroids. Their fallacy is obvious. Yet they are being taught by adults as though they should be believed. Those adults should be ashamed of themselves IMHO.
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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[/center]
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Post #6
marco wrote:One mocks Yahweh because he is painted as a pantomime character.ttruscott wrote: All you are saying is that YHWH and the story of HIS work with mankind is able to be mocked... Since Christ too was mocked, I'd say that there is nothing sacred that cannot be held up to ridicule and mockery but such mockery would seem to say more about those who mock than the lack of solemnity or reverence in the mocked.
Even when I hated HIM I never saw HIM as someone to mock. You mock spiritual things constantly. Oh well...
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Post #7
I can never understand how believers can say that they once hated this God.ttruscott wrote: Even when I hated HIM I never saw HIM as someone to mock.
What did you hate about him?
I've never hated the God of the Bible. Back when I was a believer I naively believed that there were good reasons for everything God did. I would certainly have never had any reason to hate him.
Even after I came to the realization that the religion is false I still never hated this God. In fact, it would be silly to hate what I now see as nothing more than an invention of men.
I don't even hate the men who invented him. I simply feel sorry for them. Even today I don't hate evangelists who constantly defend this ignorant religion. I do feel extremely sorry for them though. I guess I also see them as being disgusting when they actually support Biblical themes as though they are respectful or intelligent. It makes me sick to think that other humans actually think this stuff is defensible.
From my perspective Christian theists really don't look at better than Islamic extremists. They both believe in what they are doing. And just as the Christians see the radical Islamic extremists as being disgusting, I see the Christians in pretty much the same way.
I mean, the very idea of defending that it makes sense to have Jesus brutally crucified on a pole to pay for your sins and that you should rejoice over this makes me want to throw up. How can anyone think that's not disgusting?
If there really was a God who arranged this scenario as the only choice we are permitted to make, that probably would indeed be a very good reason to hate this God. Fortunately for us it's clearly nothing more than a horrible ancient folklore.
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Re: Could Yahweh have been painted better?
Post #8marco wrote: In the OT we have Yahweh playing chase with Adam, getting flustered, bargaining with Satan, telling somebody to kill his son, sending bears to rip up schoolboys and exposing himself to Moses. This picture may have frightened or amused old desert brutes but in a setting of Newtonian dynamics and Bose-Einstein statistics, Yahweh is worse than the pantomime character Widow Twankey.
Would fewer people move to atheism had Yahweh been given some dignity and perhaps described in a way that wasn't the obvious penmanship of primitives?
Or is Yahweh just right for the purpose as he is depicted?
I think the question has an obvious and conclusive answer: let everyone (but especially you, Marco) write a document which you think worthy of Deity: a document that could not be picked apart.
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Re: Could Yahweh have been painted better?
Post #9Why ask a human to do this?liamconnor wrote: I think the question has an obvious and conclusive answer: let everyone (but especially you, Marco) write a document which you think worthy of Deity: a document that could not be picked apart.
If there really was a God who has all the glory and omnipotence theists like to claim, then why didn't HE write a document that couldn't be picked apart?
If there was a Bible that actually looked like it might have been written by, or even inspired by, an all-intelligent God, I would most certainly be a very strong believer.
But the Hebrew Bible doesn't even come remotely close to meeting that standard.
Edited to add:
To address your concern above, YES, I most certainly could write a document that would be more compelling than the Bible. In fact, that would be quite EASY. Of course I wouldn't make the God out to be a jealous God who gets all bent out of shape every time things don't go as he had supposedly hoped or planned. I also wouldn't have God trying to intervene using violence every time things do go wrong and totally FAIL at making anything any better.
The Bible describes a God that not only has no brains, but can't ever solve a problem. Even arranging to have Jesus brutally crucified by a few ignorant humans doesn't solve anything.
The Biblical God is a God who can't even solve a simple problem.
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Re: Could Yahweh have been painted better?
Post #10[Replying to post 1 by marco]
We have to remember that Yahweh was created by many artists adding from their palette in some cases many years removed from the other inventors. He wasn't created for any single purpose. Each painter had their specific goal in mind. It's doubtful any foresaw the results this far removed.
Last night I was reading Malachi and I was struck by the many complaints concerning the sacrifice of flawed animals. Yahweh expressed his displeasure quite clearly. The cynic in me could not help but wonder if the priests grew tired of low quality cuts of meat and pulled out their trump card to rectify the situation. "We are tired of so much gristle" probably wouldn't have the same impact as, "Yahweh's gonna getcha!"
Tcg
We have to remember that Yahweh was created by many artists adding from their palette in some cases many years removed from the other inventors. He wasn't created for any single purpose. Each painter had their specific goal in mind. It's doubtful any foresaw the results this far removed.
Last night I was reading Malachi and I was struck by the many complaints concerning the sacrifice of flawed animals. Yahweh expressed his displeasure quite clearly. The cynic in me could not help but wonder if the priests grew tired of low quality cuts of meat and pulled out their trump card to rectify the situation. "We are tired of so much gristle" probably wouldn't have the same impact as, "Yahweh's gonna getcha!"
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom