Let's go back before creation...

[Willum]

Indulge me if you will and let's imagine we have gone back to a time BEFORE God created everything.
Let's assume there is a God of Judeo-Chritian character, but not use this definition to petulantly prove everything about it.

Now, most Judeo-Christians (JD) claim God is not evil, even taking it to extremes that he can't even be in the presence of evil.

Now back in time as we are, before creation, we can still posit this JC God is omniscient, and knows the future.

Now in this time before creation, there is no evil, correct, only the knowledge of evil?

Is it an irrational conclusion therefore, that God is the only possible source for these evils?

[ttruscott]

Is it an irrational conclusion therefore, that God is the only possible source for these evils?

Not irrational but certainly short sighted in that only one of the Christian theologies that I know of suggests this is what happened.

Everyone else thinks HE created people with a free will who, outside of HIS influence, created evil by their desire to rebel against HIM.

YES HE allowed them to create evil.
NO, HE did not actively create any evil what so ever.
HE did not need it nor want it but because HIS purpose for us could only be fulfilled by our free will acceptance of that purpose, HE had to allow our free will which by necessity also allowed the ability to rebel.

[Tcg]

Is it an irrational conclusion therefore, that God is the only possible source for these evils?

Not at all. It would in fact be the only rational conclusions. If God created everything, he would be the only possible source for all that exists.


Tcg

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

The 1st thing you have to do is define what evil it is that you are defining as evil.

If evil is defined as any action opposed to the will of God.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to post 2 by ttruscott]

How is it possible for people to be ‘outside the influence’ of an omnipotent god?

[OnceConvinced]

Now in this time before creation, there is no evil, correct, only the knowledge of evil?

How far are we going back? Are we going back before he created angels?

If so it was just him and nothing. Must have been a very boring existance.

But if we're just going back to the Genesis account then we had an evil minion (and his minions) roaming around ready to destroy anything God created.

[bjs]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Yes, that would be irrational.

The only way to say that God is the only possible source of evil is to say that free will is logically impossible.

If it is logically possible for a sentient being to have free will, then God could create a being with free will and that being would be responsible for any evil which it did.

This means that there is at least one other possible source of evil beyond God.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Yes, that would be irrational.

The only way to say that God is the only possible source of evil is to say that free will is logically impossible.

If it is logically possible for a sentient being to have free will, then God could create a being with free will and that being would be responsible for any evil which it did.

This means that there is at least one other possible source of evil beyond God.

Your explanation doesn't address the notion of God knowing ahead of time that humans would use their freewill to bring evil into the world. This seems to imply that God had the choice to create the reality that would unfold to produce humans who would use their freewill to create evil exactly as he predicted or to create a different reality that would unfold in such a way to produce humans who not use their freewill to create evil exactly as he could have predicted. Because God chose to create the reality where humans used their freewill create evil, God must have always intended for evil to come into existence. In that sense, God desired for evil to exist but, having an inability to create evil himself, could only bring about evil through his creation of humans who used their freewill for evil exactly as God predicted. Otherwise, if God did not desire for evil to exist, he had the option to create the reality where humans used their freewill to remain obedient.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 2 by ttruscott]

How is it possible for people to be ‘outside the influence’ of an omnipotent god?

To tighten up my language a little: they were outside of HIS coercion but HE did HIS best to influence them. A coercion cannot be resisted; an influence can be resisted upon scrutiny and debate. No coercion was allowed in HIS dealings with us before the Fall, either from our creation forcing us to choose a particular way or by our experience forcing us to choose a particular way, either for HIM or against HIM...ie, HE let us make free will decisions about HIS claims.

And since a true choice has to be made with full disclosure of all the consequences of the choice or it is a mere guess but with NO PROOF of any consequence which would be coercive, HE told us clearly of the results of each option and what it meant for our future. These HE hoped would influence our decisions fill heaven with those who wanted to live with HIM in HIS heaven.

[ttruscott]

Now in this time before creation, there is no evil, correct, only the knowledge of evil?

How far are we going back? Are we going back before he created angels?

If so it was just him and nothing. Must have been a very boring existence.

There was love which is proof enough for me of the Trinity because there can be no real love without an external object of that love. From our sinful broken perspective on earth, this might sound boring but I bet is was as peaceful as I hope heaven will be.