“Jesus suffered and died for our sins�

[Zzyzx]

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“Jesus suffered and died for our sins�

Everyone dies sooner or later. Some are heroic. So what?

Many characters in ancient tales are said to have died heroically, what is special about Jesus?

Many people in real life suffer far more than is claimed for Jesus. Why is his suffering a big deal?

If a person in an insane asylum says they intend to become a martyr to ‘save’ everyone, are they a hero or a 'god'?

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Many suffer far more than is claimed for Jesus. Why is his suffering a big deal?

Precisely. Throughout history people have endured incredible suffering and given their lives for other human beings without any expectation of sitting on a throne in heaven a short time later, good as new. How any of the alleged sacrifice of Jesus does anything in the scheme of things is completely beyond me. Jesus is fully God (along with the Holy Spirit) in this so-called monotheistic religion, so he can't die. The charade of God sacrificing himself to himself to pay some arbitrary price that he himself set is too ludicrous to take seriously, unless it has been so thoroughly inculcated that any attempt to question it causes severe cognitive dissonance.

[Avoice]

I agree!

If anything - Jesus got the deal of a lifetime!!! Really? Yes!!

For the sake of argument let's say his crucifixion happened and his resurrection etc are true.

He went through excruciating pain for a few hours then died. Was dead for a couple days but then sprung back to life and now lives forever. HE WON THE LOTTERY!!!

Where is the sacrifice? He lives forever!!

Let me put it thus way:
Let's say someone said to you: I will make you a deal....You can live forever from this monent on. You'll never get sick or have a horrible disease. But you have to endure immense pain for a few hours. Would you do it,? Of course you would. Who wouldnt!? It is like winning the lottery.

Jesus sacrificed nothing. He didn't die. He got to live forever.

They e have been many people who have suffered a worse death than Jesus. Besides, God ONLY accepts sacrifices in the place he chooses. And done in a specific manner. Certainly not in a place called Golgotha (the skull) hanging bloody from a tree. Also, sacrifices are only good for unintentional sins. Not intentional. Christians are clueless to the laws of sacrifices.

[bjs]

If Jesus is God then it was a massive sacrifice. It was the God who eternally knew infinite perfection stepping into time-space to experience the ups and downs, the highs and lows, the joy and loss of human life, even willingly dying in a horrible fashion. It was not the death alone, but everything leading up to that death which matters as well.

If Jesus is not God then he was just another martyr in history filled with martyrs.

[marco]

If a person in an insane asylum says they intend to become a martyr to ‘save’ everyone, are they a hero or a 'god'?

This states the problem very well. We know his family thought he was insane, and much of what he says sounds insane. Of course it is insanity to claim that one will rise from the dead with a new body, apart from some significant wounds. It is insanity to lead a few foolish people to a mountain and suggest you're going to pay God a visit.

The big question, granted all this smacks of insanity, is: how has this man got his name linked with billions of believers? Is it possible that powerful institutions could have been founded on fraud?

One possibility is that Jesus taught subservience, total resignation. So did Muhammad. And when one sees pictures of thousands of male Muslims bending down in abject submission one gets a hint of how powerful a pull religion has. How clever of humans to realise this, and utilise that power.

I don't think Jesus actually saw this scenario; he was fully convinced he had magical powers. Later people used his dead body and in that way alone has he risen from the dead.

[marco]

If Jesus is not God then he was just another martyr in history filled with martyrs.

The name of Marx is used by states that brutalise the very people Marx championed. The name of Christ is used to build theories that rival relativity: Jesus came to this planet to help God get over his anger at the first human transgression. Most folk would laugh at this, and yet …. amendment after amendment, reformer after reformer and we have a multi-coloured garment that is Christianity.

Jesus is certainly not God or a god. He was a travelling salesman selling tickets to heaven, and many bought them. No one has reported on the show.

[Zzyzx]

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If Jesus is God then it was a massive sacrifice. It was the God who eternally knew infinite perfection stepping into time-space to experience the ups and downs, the highs and lows, the joy and loss of human life, even willingly dying in a horrible fashion. It was not the death alone, but everything leading up to that death which matters as well.

How does one learn so much about ‘gods’? This seems like a claim to know about the minds of supernatural entities. Does that information come from reading ancient texts? From sermons? From just making it up along the way to sound authoritative?

Kindly be specific and tell readers how they too can learn about the mind of 'God'.

If Jesus is not God then he was just another martyr in history filled with martyrs.

EXACTLY

[bjs]

If Jesus is not God then he was just another martyr in history filled with martyrs.

The name of Christ is used to build theories that rival relativity: Jesus came to this planet to help God get over his anger at the first human transgression. Most folk would laugh at this,

As well they should, for it bears no resemblance to anything in orthodox Christianity.

Jesus is certainly not God or a god. He was a travelling salesman selling tickets to heaven,

You are, obviously, free to that belief. The opening post in this thread was about the nature of Jesus’ sacrifice, not proving that Christian doctrine to be true. I am sure that there a multiple threads on this site about “proving� the deity of Christ. Feel free to weigh in on any of them.

[bjs]

If Jesus is God then it was a massive sacrifice. It was the God who eternally knew infinite perfection stepping into time-space to experience the ups and downs, the highs and lows, the joy and loss of human life, even willingly dying in a horrible fashion. It was not the death alone, but everything leading up to that death which matters as well.

How does one learn so much about ‘gods’? This seems like a claim to know about the minds of supernatural entities. Does that information come from reading ancient texts? From sermons? From just making it up along the way to sound authoritative?

Kindly be specific and tell readers how they too can learn about the mind of 'God'.

I described the nature of an infinite Being, commonly called “God.� I did not claim to know the mind of this God. If you wish to know more about metaphysics, I recommend reading Plato and Thomas Aquinas.

If Jesus is not God then he was just another martyr in history filled with martyrs.

EXACTLY

Yes, I try my best to say exactly what I mean.

[Zzyzx]

.

If Jesus is God then it was a massive sacrifice. It was the God who eternally knew infinite perfection stepping into time-space to experience the ups and downs, the highs and lows, the joy and loss of human life, even willingly dying in a horrible fashion. It was not the death alone, but everything leading up to that death which matters as well.

How does one learn so much about ‘gods’? This seems like a claim to know about the minds of supernatural entities. Does that information come from reading ancient texts? From sermons? From just making it up along the way to sound authoritative?

Kindly be specific and tell readers how they too can learn about the mind of 'God'.

I described the nature of an infinite Being, commonly called “God.�

Okay. How does one learn ‘the nature of an infinite being’? Does that information come from reading ancient texts? From sermons? From just making it up along the way to sound authoritative?

I did not claim to know the mind of this God. If you wish to know more about metaphysics, I recommend reading Plato and Thomas Aquinas.

I have no desire to know about imaginary beings through study of metaphysics.

If Jesus is not God then he was just another martyr in history filled with martyrs.

EXACTLY

Yes, I try my best to say exactly what I mean.

It is rare that we are in agreement regarding theological matters. However, in this case if a wandering Jewish preacher got bumped off for crossing authorities, he was just another martyr among many. Suits me.

Many, however, claim that he was some sort of supernatural entity.