What can we make of Christ's miracles?

[marco]

If Christ had restricted himself to making outrageous claims: I'm a shepherd in charge of human beings; I am the way to Paradise; my dad is the proprietor of heavenly estates with many mansions; before Abraham was born there was me! I can call on many legions of angels to help me - if I wanted, but I don't ..... we could dismiss him as insane, as his family thought.



But then there is the little matter of the miracles. At the wedding party Mary asked her son for money to buy more wine - or did she ask for a miracle to be performed? Maybe getting Jesus to part with his cash was seen as a miracle. But the star event is surely the raising of the corpse of Lazarus, reported to great accalaim by his biographers. Except .... despite the enormity of this miracle, Matthew, the man who spoke of walking dead, Mark and Luke do not mention it. John does. The original event was Christ making Lazarus see sense, raising him up. In the Prodigal parable the father declares his son was dead and was now come alive. So death, in the bible, can be metaphorically overcome.


Are the miracles necessary for people to accept Jesus? If we dismiss them all, do we therefore dismiss the claims of Christ?

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]


I hear many say that they love Christ for his words, at least some of them. He championed the underdog and that is always a hit with folk. But he is patron of the RC Church not because he advocated poverty to the Vatican, but because he offered keys to the Kingdom and proved his divinity with miracles. Take away the miracles and you take god out of the Lord. The Church has stronger foundations if built on God, rather than on an eloquent preacher.

[JehovahsWitness]

At the wedding party Mary asked her son for money to buy more wine - or did she ask for a miracle to be performed?

Neither, if we restrict ourselves to what was writtten. She told him of the problem and in doing so was evidently implying he should provide a solution. We cannot read her mind so we can but guess what exactly she expected him to do.


JW

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

If Penn & Teller lived during the time of Jesus, some folks would be explaining how four persons make up one. God the father, God the spirit, and God the Penn & Teller.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

Are the miracles necessary for people to accept Jesus?

That would depend on what they want to accept Jesus as.

• - accept Jesus as a historical figure? No.
  
  - accept Jesus as a Prophet? No, there were plenty of biblical prophets that performed no miracles.
  
  - accept Jesus as the son of God? Not necessarily, some might argue even the Son of God would not be obliged to prove his powers by miracles if (for whatever reason) he didn't want to.

Accept Jesus as presented in scripture? Yes. There is no doubt that the bible presents a Jesus that performed spectacular miracles including raise several people from the dead. If we are to accept the Jesus protrayed in this written record about him, then yes we must aslo accept that he was a miracle worker.

JW

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JESUS , MIRACLES, and MESSIANIC PROPHECY

[Tcg]

If we are to accept the Jesus protrayed in this written record about him, then yes we must aslo accept that he was a miracle worker.

Now all you have to do is provide verifiable evidence that Jesus was indeed a miracle worker. Lacking that, there is no reason to accept the written record about him.


Tcg

[marco]

At the wedding party Mary asked her son for money to buy more wine - or did she ask for a miracle to be performed?

Neither, if we restrict ourselves to what was writtten. She told him of the problem and in doing so was evidently implying he should provide a solution. We cannot read her mind so we can but guess what exactly she expected him to do.

Very wise - we cannot assume the wine was provided miraculously. Many intoxicated characters, seeing Jesus brought some new wine, may well have said it was a wonderful. Odd how the commonplace can be transformed into the ethereal.

[marco]

If we are to accept the Jesus protrayed in this written record about him, then yes we must aslo accept that he was a miracle worker.

Now all you have to do is provide verifiable evidence that Jesus was indeed a miracle worker. Lacking that, there is no reason to accept the written record about him.

We can accept Jesus went off, dutifully, and got more wine. We need not of course accept the biographer's explanation that God sent it with his blessing. It may have been that someone, on tasting it, remarked: "God, this is good." And so the rumour started.

[JehovahsWitness]

At the wedding party Mary asked her son for money to buy more wine - or did she ask for a miracle to be performed?

Neither, if we restrict ourselves to what was writtten. She told him of the problem and in doing so was evidently implying he should provide a solution. We cannot read her mind so we can but guess what exactly she expected him to do.

Very wise - we cannot assume the wine was provided miraculously.

My comment was regarding Mary's expectations (since that is what your question focused on). Are you suggesting there was something in my comment which dealt with the question of whether the wine was provided miraculously or not?





JW

[JehovahsWitness]

We need not of course accept the biographer's explanation that God sent it with his blessing.

Of course, but as your own words indicate, in concluding Jesus went off and bought the wine we are rejecting the biblical narrative. One cannot accept the Jesus as presented in the biographer's narrative and reject him as a miracle working Prophet, one has to choose.

Are the miracles necessary for people to accept Jesus?

That would depend on what they want to accept Jesus as. If they want to accept him as presented in scripture, in line with the plain meaning of the words in the text, the answer to the question is yes !





JW