Grounds for morality

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Zzyzx
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Grounds for morality

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

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Grounds for morality

In a current thread someone made the following claim
CalvinsBulldog wrote: Only we theists have a grounds for morality
Questions for debate:

1. Do Theists have legitimate claim to possess the only grounds for morality?

2. Do grandiose statements such as this cast a favorable light on Christianity – or damage its image?

3. Has Christian dogma convinced such outspoken 'sheep' that they are morally superior? How?

4. Is anyone here a legitimate spokesman for Theism and Christianity?

Edited on 10/17/2019 to insert red above
Last edited by Zzyzx on Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grounds for morality

Post #2

Post by Realworldjack »

Zzyzx wrote: .
Grounds for morality

In a current thread someone made the following claim
CalvinsBulldog wrote: Only we theists have a grounds for morality
Questions for debate:

1. Do Theists have legitimate claim to possess the only grounds for morality?

2. Do grandiose statements such as this cast a favorable light on Christianity – or damage its image?

3. Has Christian dogma convinced such outspoken 'sheep' that they are morally superior? How?

4. Is CalvinsBulldog a legitimate spokesman for Theism and Christianity?


At this point, seeing as how I am so tied up with another thread, I would like to simply respond to one point here.
3. Has Christian dogma convinced such outspoken 'sheep' that they are morally superior? How?
I am fairly certain, this could not possibly be the point, "Calvinsbulldog" is making. I cannot be certain, but I am assuming his screen name has something to do with Calvinism, and I am also pretty sure, that he identifies, as a "reformed Christian" and if I am correct, he could not possibly be insisting that, Christians would be, "morally superior".

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Re: Grounds for morality

Post #3

Post by Zzyzx »

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Thanks for speaking up thoughtfully and reasonably RWJ
Realworldjack wrote: I am fairly certain, this could not possibly be the point, "Calvinsbulldog" is making. I cannot be certain, but I am assuming his screen name has something to do with Calvinism, and I am also pretty sure, that he identifies, as a "reformed Christian" and if I am correct, he could not possibly be insisting that, Christians would be, "morally superior".
Perhaps this is another example of, "It doesn't mean what it says or say what it means"?
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Re: Grounds for morality

Post #4

Post by Realworldjack »

Zzyzx wrote: .
Thanks for speaking up thoughtfully and reasonably RWJ
Realworldjack wrote: I am fairly certain, this could not possibly be the point, "Calvinsbulldog" is making. I cannot be certain, but I am assuming his screen name has something to do with Calvinism, and I am also pretty sure, that he identifies, as a "reformed Christian" and if I am correct, he could not possibly be insisting that, Christians would be, "morally superior".
Perhaps this is another example of, "It doesn't mean what it says or say what it means"?

Okay, allow me to spell it out a little further. If I were to say, "Only we theists have a grounds for morality" I am not in any way saying, "we as Christians live up to this morality we have a grounds for, which you do not have a grounds for".

Rather, what I could be saying is, we as Christians have a grounds for morality, but we do not live up to this moral standard we have a grounds for, and therefore, even though we have a grounds for this morality, we are just as immoral, and anyone else.

I would be shocked to find out that this is not what CB is saying, and if I am correct, he is not in any way inferring, that we as Christians, are morally superior.

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Re: Grounds for morality

Post #5

Post by Zzyzx »

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Thanks again RWJ
Realworldjack wrote: Rather, what I could be saying is, we as Christians have a grounds for morality, but we do not live up to this moral standard we have a grounds for, and therefore, even though we have a grounds for this morality, we are just as immoral, and anyone else.
If that was what was actually said, I would consider it truthful and accurate – and would have absolutely no objection.

However, that is far from "Only we theists have a grounds for morality" – which is what was said and IS a claim to have exclusive claim to grounds for morality. It says nothing about living up to a moral standard. Adding the disclaimer ‘don’t live up to’ changes the message significantly.
Realworldjack wrote: I would be shocked to find out that this is not what CB is saying, and if I am correct, he is not in any way inferring, that we as Christians, are morally superior.
I would not be even mildly surprised to learn that CB intended to claim moral superiority for Theists. As many or most of us are aware, it is not uncommon for religious people to express the idea that they have superior morals.

Thankfully, Rational Theists wisely disavow such claims.
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Re: Grounds for morality

Post #6

Post by 1213 »

Zzyzx wrote: ...
CalvinsBulldog wrote: Only we theists have a grounds for morality
Questions for debate:

1. Do Theists have legitimate claim to possess the only grounds for morality?
...
If atheists have grounds for morality, what are they?

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Re: Grounds for morality

Post #7

Post by Zzyzx »

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1213 wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: 1. Do Theists have legitimate claim to possess the only grounds for morality?
...
If atheists have grounds for morality, what are they?
Notice that the OP questions do NOT ask about Atheists.

Kindly try to stay on the topic and avoid attempted diversions.
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Re: Grounds for morality

Post #8

Post by Divine Insight »

CalvinsBulldog wrote: Only we theists have a grounds for morality
Precisely the opposite is true, and here's why,...

Theists claim that they cannot know what is moral or immoral and this is why they need a God to dictate to them which things are moral and which things are immoral.

Therefore they can't even argue that their God is moral since they, by their own proclamation, cannot determine what is moral or immoral.

So they can't even argue for the morality of the things Jesus did much less for what the God of the OT did.

If the God of the Bible tells you to bash babies against rocks, then bashing babies against rocks must be moral. If the God of the Bible tells you to kill people who teach of other Gods along with their children, livestock, and even the entire village from whence they came then committing genocide against people who teach of other Gods must be moral as the theists could have no clue what might be moral or immoral on their own right? They need to have their God tell them what's moral and immoral.

So theists are in no position to even be able to say what's moral or immoral because their very position is that they cannot know if their God doesn't tell them.

So this kind of theistic argument is nothing more than an admission of having no moral compass at all. So they are in no position to even say what might be moral or immoral. By their own confession they have absolutely no way of knowing.

All they can do is try to follow the conflicting directives of their religious dogma and hope that it's moral, because by their own confession they have no clue what's moral or immoral.

No theist is in any position to try to argue that the actions of their God are "moral", because according to them they cannot know what's moral or immoral.

It's a silly argument that actually backfires on them and places then in a position of having to confess that they have no clue what's moral or immoral.

Atheists, on the other hand, can indeed take a position on morality. They can argue for why they feel something should or shouldn't be considered to be moral or immoral. Atheists can even argue that some behaviors should be considered to be amoral (beyond the scope of right or wrong). For example, should I eat an orange or an apple? It doesn't matter because those choices and actions are amoral. They simply don't have a right or wrong answer.

Theists can't even join in those debates because they have already decreed that they cannot know what is moral, immoral, or amoral.

So ironically, only atheists can have meaning discussions about morality.
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Re: Grounds for morality

Post #9

Post by Mithrae »

Zzyzx wrote: .
1213 wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: 1. Do Theists have legitimate claim to possess the only grounds for morality?
...
If atheists have grounds for morality, what are they?
Notice that the OP questions do NOT ask about Atheists.

Kindly try to stay on the topic and avoid attempted diversions.
Perhaps I'm misreading, but the OP does seem to ask fairly clearly about both theists and atheists: The only possible way to answer the first question is to consider a) do theists have legitimate grounds for morality and b) do non-theists have legitimate grounds for morality.

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Re: Grounds for morality

Post #10

Post by Zzyzx »

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Mithrae wrote: Perhaps I'm misreading, but the OP does seem to ask fairly clearly about both theists and atheists:
Reading the OP very carefully, it does NOT mention Atheists at all.

When a person makes a statement, as CB did, "Only we theists have a grounds for morality" -- they (and/or their supporters) are responsible for demonstrating that the statement is true and accurate.
Mithrae wrote: The only possible way to answer the first question is to consider a) do theists have legitimate grounds for morality and b) do non-theists have legitimate grounds for morality.
Those are valid questions -- but are not applicable. The claim was "Only we theists have a grounds for morality".
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