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Flight to Egypt
Is there verifiable evidence that:
1) Joseph, Mary, and Jesus traveled to Egypt (400+ miles) as reported in Matthew 2:13-18 ?
2) The family lived in Egypt?
3) Male children two years old and younger were killed by order of Herod?
There is a TALE that such things happened. Did they really / actually / literally happen in the real world (not just in imagination or fantasy)?
Flight to Egypt
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Flight to Egypt
Post #1.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Re: Flight to Egypt
Post #2Matthew is the man who said corpses shuffled along the road to Jerusalem, to say hello to their (surprised) kin. His story of a 400 mile detour to Egypt sounds like advanced science in comparison.Zzyzx wrote: .
Flight to Egypt
Is there verifiable evidence that:
1) Joseph, Mary, and Jesus traveled to Egypt (400+ miles) as reported in Matthew 2:13-18 ?
2) The family lived in Egypt?
3) Male children two years old and younger were killed by order of Herod?
There is a TALE that such things happened. Did they really / actually / literally happen in the real world (not just in imagination or fantasy)?
I think we can safely take it that infants weren't massacred. If they were then it was God's fault for carelessly allowing a divine birth in such a dangerous part of the world. The mention of Egypt and the killing of male infants is just a piece of confusion in Matthew's head - he had heard of the plagues.
Post #3
Certain of us here suspect that the Christian-Jewish propagandists were trying to pass their guy off as the new Moses ...
Hence the Herod and the infants notion.
It's possibly nothing more than political slander.
Josephus devotes a LOT of parchment to Herod the Great.
Not a peep about the slaughtered kiddies.
Such an event is most likely to have been given at least a passing mention in other Roman writings …
Certainly worth writing as a tragedy play …
But not a peep.
Just as there is not a chisel to stone to commemorate the Jewish angel from the mythological Jehovah that murdered all those little Egyptians …
Just because they were Egyptian.
(Perhaps that's where the Nazis took their inspiration …? From "God" …?)
The 400-mile donkey ride also appears nowhere other than in the pro-Jesus propaganda …
But at least that bit does not involve magic.
Or anti-Herodian slander …
From the pro-David political faction that wrote this stuff.
Hence the Herod and the infants notion.
It's possibly nothing more than political slander.
Josephus devotes a LOT of parchment to Herod the Great.
Not a peep about the slaughtered kiddies.
Such an event is most likely to have been given at least a passing mention in other Roman writings …
Certainly worth writing as a tragedy play …
But not a peep.
Just as there is not a chisel to stone to commemorate the Jewish angel from the mythological Jehovah that murdered all those little Egyptians …
Just because they were Egyptian.
(Perhaps that's where the Nazis took their inspiration …? From "God" …?)
The 400-mile donkey ride also appears nowhere other than in the pro-Jesus propaganda …
But at least that bit does not involve magic.
Or anti-Herodian slander …
From the pro-David political faction that wrote this stuff.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
Re: Flight to Egypt
Post #4Zzyzx wrote: Flight to Egypt
Is there verifiable evidence that:
1) Joseph, Mary, and Jesus traveled to Egypt (400+ miles) as reported in Matthew 2:13-18 ?
2) The family lived in Egypt?
I am unsure what you are looking for here. Could use give me an example of what you would consider “verifiable evidence� that a specific lower class family of three from Israel lived in Egypt for an unspecified number of years and at unspecified time generally around the start of the first millennium?
I assume that you are not designing your request in a way that specifically avoids the reasonable possibility that such evidence exists, so knowing what you would consider verifiable evidence of this event would help in answering your request.
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Re: Flight to Egypt
Post #5.
HOWEVER, there should be records by valid historians of the era if all male children under two years old were killed by order of Harod.
That is part of the tale – supposedly the reason for the flight to Egypt.
Care to try to tackle that one? Or would it be easier to skip over and avoid it?
There would likely be meager evidence, perhaps not verifiable, of such an unremarkable event as the family vacation.bjs wrote:I am unsure what you are looking for here. Could use give me an example of what you would consider “verifiable evidence� that a specific lower class family of three from Israel lived in Egypt for an unspecified number of years and at unspecified time generally around the start of the first millennium?Zzyzx wrote: Is there verifiable evidence that:
1) Joseph, Mary, and Jesus traveled to Egypt (400+ miles) as reported in Matthew 2:13-18 ?
2) The family lived in Egypt?
I assume that you are not designing your request in a way that specifically avoids the reasonable possibility that such evidence exists, so knowing what you would consider verifiable evidence of this event would help in answering your request.
HOWEVER, there should be records by valid historians of the era if all male children under two years old were killed by order of Harod.
That is part of the tale – supposedly the reason for the flight to Egypt.
Care to try to tackle that one? Or would it be easier to skip over and avoid it?
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Re: Flight to Egypt
Post #6[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]
The story of the Herod's massacre of the innocents was written to harken back to Pharoh's massacre of the innocents. A literary device to convey the notion that Jesus was the new Moses. Nothing more. I doubt that any corroborating physical evidence exists, or any independent historical evidence, for that matter.
The story of the Herod's massacre of the innocents was written to harken back to Pharoh's massacre of the innocents. A literary device to convey the notion that Jesus was the new Moses. Nothing more. I doubt that any corroborating physical evidence exists, or any independent historical evidence, for that matter.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
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Re: Flight to Egypt
Post #7Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]
The story of the Herod's massacre of the innocents was written to harken back to Pharoh's massacre of the innocents. A literary device to convey the notion that Jesus was the new Moses. Nothing more. I doubt that any corroborating physical evidence exists, or any independent historical evidence, for that matter.
Can you prove this?
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Flight to Egypt
Post #8Zzyzx wrote: .There would likely be meager evidence, perhaps not verifiable, of such an unremarkable event as the family vacation.bjs wrote:I am unsure what you are looking for here. Could use give me an example of what you would consider “verifiable evidence� that a specific lower class family of three from Israel lived in Egypt for an unspecified number of years and at unspecified time generally around the start of the first millennium?Zzyzx wrote: Is there verifiable evidence that:
1) Joseph, Mary, and Jesus traveled to Egypt (400+ miles) as reported in Matthew 2:13-18 ?
2) The family lived in Egypt?
I assume that you are not designing your request in a way that specifically avoids the reasonable possibility that such evidence exists, so knowing what you would consider verifiable evidence of this event would help in answering your request.
HOWEVER, there should be records by valid historians of the era if all male children under two years old were killed by order of Harod.
That is part of the tale – supposedly the reason for the flight to Egypt.
Care to try to tackle that one? Or would it be easier to skip over and avoid it?
We've had the "What do you mean by evidence" card played … again.
But only for the "Holy Family" going on the lam …
These people - if they existed - were NOT lower class. They were (supposedly) from the deposed David royal family ...
And the one in the woman's arms created the universe.
Construction workers, or deposed royals, or universe creators, the trip is unlikely to have made the history books.
Now THIS looks to me like a whole bunch of anti-Herodian political slander ...
Such an occurrence we WOULD expect to find some record of ...
Outside the Christian-Jewish propaganda ...
Which is the ONLY place we DO find it.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
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Re: Flight to Egypt
Post #9[Replying to post 7 by JehovahsWitness]
I asked you several times to tell me how the flight from Egypt fulfills prophecy. The writer of Mathew says it does. The writer refers to words spoken by the prophet Hosea. Saying that when Mary, Joseph and Jesus left Egypt it was prophesized by Hosea. And every anotated Christian bible cites Hosea 11:1 as the proof text.
So I ask you once again:
How is Hosea 11 about Jesus, Joseph and Mary returning from Egypt? And how is it a prophetic passage?
HOSEA IS TALKING ABOUT THE EXODUS FROM EGYPT. AND ITS NOT EVEN A PROPHECY!
Ive been waiting for you to respond for nearly two months. I've reminded you four or five times. I thought being a JW was about defending your testament. Why are you failing?
I asked you several times to tell me how the flight from Egypt fulfills prophecy. The writer of Mathew says it does. The writer refers to words spoken by the prophet Hosea. Saying that when Mary, Joseph and Jesus left Egypt it was prophesized by Hosea. And every anotated Christian bible cites Hosea 11:1 as the proof text.
So I ask you once again:
How is Hosea 11 about Jesus, Joseph and Mary returning from Egypt? And how is it a prophetic passage?
HOSEA IS TALKING ABOUT THE EXODUS FROM EGYPT. AND ITS NOT EVEN A PROPHECY!
Ive been waiting for you to respond for nearly two months. I've reminded you four or five times. I thought being a JW was about defending your testament. Why are you failing?
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Re: Flight to Egypt
Post #10Can I prove there is no physical evidence or independent historical evidence that verifies Jesus Mary and Joseph's flight to Egypt? You are attempting to shift the burden of proof here, if you have such evidence (extra-Biblical) please, by all means provide it. Apologists are the ones who are making the claim, not me. What we call here, "unsubstantiated claim".JehovahsWitness wrote:Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]
The story of the Herod's massacre of the innocents was written to harken back to Pharoh's massacre of the innocents. A literary device to convey the notion that Jesus was the new Moses. Nothing more. I doubt that any corroborating physical evidence exists, or any independent historical evidence, for that matter.
Can you prove this?
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.