Why did Jesus say: "Buy a sword!"

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marco
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Why did Jesus say: "Buy a sword!"

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In Luke 22 we have: “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. "


Jesus has stopped telling people to turn the other cheek, but rather turn the sword on the attacker. Of course he had an inkling that it would all end in carnage, that his friends would be slaughtered and his church would be the instrument of mass murder, for he said: in Matthew 10

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.


Some think Christ meant that, sadly, the consequence of his coming would be division. Christ does not say this: He says the purpose of his coming is to bring a sword, to set people against each other and divide families. That is his intention.



How can we redeem the Redeemer here? How can we find any good in Christ when he advises the purchase of swords, and says he wants to set people against each other?

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Re: Why did Jesus say: "Buy a sword!"

Post #21

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
marco wrote: In Luke 22 we have: “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. "


Jesus has stopped telling people to turn the other cheek, but rather turn the sword on the attacker.



But that is not actually true though is it?

Christ (Jaheshua) made it quite clear immediately following these instructions that they were NOT to turn that sword upon the attacker. He rebukes Peter for attacking those who came to arrest Him, then he healed the person Peter injured.

So perhaps this simply presented a good opportunity to teach a much-needed lesson.

Of course he had an inkling that it would all end in carnage, that his friends would be slaughtered


Some would be killed; or persecuted; or imprisoned; or put out of the synagogues; etc.

and his church would be the instrument of mass murder,

The lesson about the sword teaches the exact opposite thing:

"Put your sword away!"


The instrument of mass murder was not His Church, even though they may claim it:

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'




He NEVER knew them.
for he said: in Matthew 10

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.

This is obviously not a literal sword. This verse has nothing to do with anyone being massacred by any sword, so why try and connect it to the above by saying "for he said..."?

Some think Christ meant that, sadly, the consequence of his coming would be division. Christ does not say this: He says the purpose of his coming is to bring a sword, to set people against each other and divide families. That is his intention.

This is another topic perhaps.

But the sword Christ Jaheshua brought is truth. That is the sword that comes out of His mouth (as described in Revelation 19;15); because truth is what He speaks (and so truth is what comes out of His mouth).


Truth does divide. But we who belong to Christ are not to be the enemies of others (including members in our household). Others (including members of our household) may be our enemies, but we are not to be their enemies. We are to love them.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #22

Post by marco »

Overcomer wrote: Jesus isn't advocating violence.

This is an opinion that ignores the language used: sword, and setting family members against each other. Jesus does not say that because some heed and others don't there will be division. He says he has come TO CAUSE division. It is his aim. That is the element of violence in his statement.
Overcomer wrote:
Read in context, we see that Jesus is saying that his coming would put people at odds because some people would accept him for who he said he was and others wouldn't.

Fine, but that is not what the statement says. It is not that his coming would have consequences - his coming is designed to cause those consequences, for whatever reason. By "read in context" you presumably mean by taking Jesus as a peacemaker, we must change what he has said to give a meaning that is consistent with this view.
Overcomer wrote:
The very fact that we're debating that here proves the truth of his statement.

Only if we read the statement incorrectly, as if the division and argument were a consequence of his coming to spread good news. He has come in order to spread division. You are reading the statement as if it were: "There will be division after me." This is completely different from "I have come here to cause division; to set father against son, and daughter against mother." Why on earth would any good person confess to having this as his aim?

Benign exegeses are all very well; they ignore what was said and analyse some other sayings of Christ, super-imposing them on this one. The best we can say is that perhaps Christ has been misreported, that he actually said: "Despite my advocating love, some will find hatred, and so there will be division."


Matthew isn't perhaps the best reporter in the world, giving his taste for walking corpses. So perhaps he has traducd his Lord.

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Re: Why did Jesus say: "Buy a sword!"

Post #23

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 21 by tam]

So Jesus, Josuousseosouesua, making scripture into a REM song, makes sense to you does it?
If he says things that are contradictory, you simply agree with the one you want to agree with?
Does that change with the conditions?
If the nation were in a bellicose state, would you be swinging the other way?
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Re: Why did Jesus say: "Buy a sword!"

Post #24

Post by marco »

tam wrote:

But that is not actually true though is it?

Christ (Jaheshua) made it quite clear immediately following these instructions that they were NOT to turn that sword upon the attacker. He rebukes Peter for attacking those who came to arrest Him, then he healed the person Peter injured.
I am not arguing that Jesus is consistent in what he says and does. Telling his apostles to buy swords is one thing. What he says on another occasion does not negate this. He may well advocate non-violence on one day and on another go and get a whip to lash merchants in the Temple.
tam wrote:
The lesson about the sword teaches the exact opposite thing:
It is you who are calling this a "lesson". It did not suit Christ's purpose to resist his accusers. They were to put their swords away so that he could march to the death he willingly sought. Casualties were not in his plan. There is no lesson here. He has already told them to sell what they have and buy swords - that's advice.
tam wrote:

This is obviously not a literal sword. This verse has nothing to do with anyone being massacred by any sword, so why try and connect it to the above by saying "for he said..."?

If one properly uses symbolic language then the properties of the symbol are what is being advocated. A sword kills. There is no question of taking a literal meaning but one must respect the symbols used.
tam wrote:
But the sword Christ Jaheshua brought is truth. That is the sword that comes out of His mouth (as described in Revelation 19;15); because truth is what He speaks (and so truth is what comes out of His mouth).
This is absurd imagery. We can force meaning into a sword, Excalibur, say, and call it truth but we are some 50,000 miles from the original statement. You are wrong in supposing that when Christ said: I bring a sword, he meant truth, because he follows the statement with a list of horrible divisions in the close-knit circumstances of a family. And he says division is his purpose - he wants people to fight. This in anyone's language is outrageous. Of course we can pretend Christ didn't mean what he said; that he wants people to love each other, not hate or fight. This does NOT express the meaning of the words in Matthew: I come TO CAUSE STRIFE.

The answer should be: Then you should not have come; instead let father talk to son and daughter love her mother. The world has no need of trouble makers.


But as I said, Christ got his wish, for his own followers met horrible deaths and millions through the centuries have fallen to the sword - metaphorically- that Christ supplied. There may be praise for his beatitudes, but condemnation for his expressed purpose of bringing division.

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Post #25

Post by Avoice »

The Messiah would NEVER EVER say he didn't come to bring peace. What more proof do Christians need. Are they this ignorant? I am sure they have the most credit ulous explaination for this. They have to come up with something. Wonder what acrobatics they'll use to make it acceptable for JESUS to say he didn't come to bring peace. I almost feel sorry for Christians. They are left holding the bag having to defend this stuff.

Jesus could tell them that he is not the Messiah and they still wouldn't believe it

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Re: Why did Jesus say: "Buy a sword!"

Post #26

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

It may just be that Jesus(es) wants us to kill those evil heathens just as the Bible (Old Testament) says.

It may be that Jesus(es) experienced much troubles or abuse without it being mentioned explicitly in the Bible apart from the crucifixion and thus the wanton for killing. Basis for the 2nd Amendment. Note also on "Thy staff and thy rod, they comfort me!" Thank you.
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Re: Why did Jesus say: "Buy a sword!"

Post #27

Post by marco »

Aetixintro wrote: [Replying to post 1 by marco]

It may just be that Jesus(es) wants us to kill those evil heathens just as the Bible (Old Testament) says.

It may be that Jesus(es) experienced much troubles or abuse without it being mentioned explicitly in the Bible apart from the crucifixion and thus the wanton for killing. Basis for the 2nd Amendment. Note also on "Thy staff and thy rod, they comfort me!" Thank you.

Yes, Jesus is a product of the Old Testament, suspiciously so. His every act echoes some phrase from Scripture. Was this design? And his birth, over which presumably he had no control, is rendered Scriptural by clever choice of location and his genealogy shines, improbably, back to Adam.

Alexander, too, thought he was God's son. This has consequences on how one behaves: Alexander certainly inherited some of power of Zeus, in his world conquest, so perhaps Jesus assumed some of Yahweh's brutality, though his upbringing steered him towards peace. He lost his cool in the Temple; he was often short with those who cared for him; death was a nasty preoccupation. He certainly seems not to have been in the best mental health, which of course was the diagnosis of those best qualified to judge. We would not therefore expect consistency in Christ's pronouncements, and we don't get it. "Buy a sword" ; "Love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek." A remarkable man!

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Re: Why did Jesus say: "Buy a sword!"

Post #28

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 26 by Aetixintro]

Could there be any conceivable reason Jesus wanted his disciples to have swords on that night, other than to kill people with them?



JW



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Post #29

Post by marco »

Zzyzx wrote:
Of course not, "if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" is PURE peacefulness.

Modern terminology would be 'get a gun' -- to promote peace.
Jesus was indulging in some realpolitik perhaps. There's an old Roman text that prescribes for peace as follows: "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum..."

…. and so if it's peace you want, prepare for war.


In another bit of Christ's biography Matthew was able to write: "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

I wonder what they made of these contrary instructions from the Messiah. We shall hear in heaven, like Beethoven.

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Re: Why did Jesus say: "Buy a sword!"

Post #30

Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 26 by Aetixintro]

Could there be any conceivable reason Jesus wanted his disciples to have swords on that night, other than to kill people with them?

If we take sword as figurative, meaning peace, then Jesus was - consistently - urging his disiples to meet violence with the sword of peace, promising them immunity from harm. He was maybe talking about the kind of sword that protrudes from his mouth, as in Revelation ""… out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword." But I don't think he was asking them to become sword swallowers.

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