We will assume God sent Jesus for your sins.
We will assume God knows and created everything.
We will assume you can’t fool God.
We will assume God sent Jesus, an incarnation of some kind of this God.
Those are the pay to plays for the topic, violate them and be reported off topic.
Then since God is not being fooled by people’s redemption, it must be because he knows he is ultimately responsible for all sins, and Jesus is only a mechanism for people to acknowledge it.
That is the only possible ‘test’. To admit you sinned, but that it is God’s fault, and you are not responsible.
Jesus/God could only redeem himself for your sins if he were responsible for them.
Please discuss the premise. Not just true or false, but implications.
Jesus died for your sins, this makes sense... only if...
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The Tanager
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Post #2
I don't think your view of responsibility is nuanced enough. There is a difference between (a) being responsible for one's ability to sin and (b) being responsible for one's free choice to sin. God could be responsible for (a), without being responsible for (b).
I also don't see why you think God could only redeem sins that he were responsible for? It may have to do with what you understand about the process of redemption, so if you gave that, then the point you are making might become clearer.
I also don't see why you think God could only redeem sins that he were responsible for? It may have to do with what you understand about the process of redemption, so if you gave that, then the point you are making might become clearer.
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Willum
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Post #3
[Replying to post 2 by The Tanager]
I don’t care. The assumptions are perfectly comprehensible. They allow anyone to understand the topic and answer with very broad constraints, if you are not capable of following these simple constraints, have the courtesy of not answering.
I don’t care. The assumptions are perfectly comprehensible. They allow anyone to understand the topic and answer with very broad constraints, if you are not capable of following these simple constraints, have the courtesy of not answering.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
Re: Jesus died for your sins, this makes sense... only if...
Post #4Okay, I accept these premises for this debate. I will not argue with them.Willum wrote: We will assume God sent Jesus for your sins.
We will assume God knows and created everything.
We will assume you can’t fool God.
We will assume God sent Jesus, an incarnation of some kind of this God.
Those are the pay to plays for the topic, violate them and be reported off topic.
This is non-sequitur. There does not appear to be any logical way to get from premises stated at the beginning to the conclusion that God “knows he is ultimately responsible for all sins.�Willum wrote: Then since God is not being fooled by people’s redemption, it must be because he knows he is ultimately responsible for all sins, and Jesus is only a mechanism for people to acknowledge it.
Can you lay out the logic you used to get here?
(If your intent was to say that God is ultimately responsible for all sins – an idea universally rejected by orthodox Christianity – is a premise that is not up for debate then I will bow of this thread since it would mean that this thread has nothing to do with Christianity.)
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
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ttruscott
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Re: Jesus died for your sins, this makes sense... only if...
Post #5Christians have no need to discuss this any more than we have a need to discuss any other illegitimate fantasy about GOD based upon speculation with no supporting argument or evidence presented at all.Willum wrote:Jesus/God could only redeem himself for your sins if he were responsible for them.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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otseng
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Post #6
Moderator Action
Thread is not posed as a topic for debate, but only for discussion. Please recreate thread with a question for debate.
Moved to Random Ramblings. Please review the Rules and Tips on starting a debate topic.
Thread is not posed as a topic for debate, but only for discussion. Please recreate thread with a question for debate.
Moved to Random Ramblings. Please review the Rules and Tips on starting a debate topic.
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OnlineWilliam
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Re: Jesus died for your sins, this makes sense... only if...
Post #7Willum: We will assume God sent Jesus for your sins.
We will assume God knows and created everything.
We will assume you can’t fool God.
We will assume God sent Jesus, an incarnation of some kind of this God.
William: Okay - Assumptions applied...
Willum: Then since God is not being fooled by people’s redemption, it must be because he knows he is ultimately responsible for all sins, and Jesus is only a mechanism for people to acknowledge it.
William: So given that redemption is "the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil" God is not fooled by that, means...what? That there is no redemption?
Willum: Jesus/God could only redeem himself for your sins if he were responsible for them.
William: Yes - okay then...God redeems Gods Self...seems reasonable since we are told that God went through a stage of regretting his decision to create humans the way that he did...and even if it were not a true story, by God doing this, he absolves not only himself but everyone else by giving us an opportunity to accept absolution - even if that really means forgiving God as God has forgiven Gods Self.
Willum: Please discuss the premise. Not just true or false, but implications.
William: Perhaps somewhere along the line God came to the realization that some kind of an 'out' had to be arranged...
We will assume God knows and created everything.
We will assume you can’t fool God.
We will assume God sent Jesus, an incarnation of some kind of this God.
William: Okay - Assumptions applied...
Willum: Then since God is not being fooled by people’s redemption, it must be because he knows he is ultimately responsible for all sins, and Jesus is only a mechanism for people to acknowledge it.
William: So given that redemption is "the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil" God is not fooled by that, means...what? That there is no redemption?
Willum: Jesus/God could only redeem himself for your sins if he were responsible for them.
William: Yes - okay then...God redeems Gods Self...seems reasonable since we are told that God went through a stage of regretting his decision to create humans the way that he did...and even if it were not a true story, by God doing this, he absolves not only himself but everyone else by giving us an opportunity to accept absolution - even if that really means forgiving God as God has forgiven Gods Self.
Willum: Please discuss the premise. Not just true or false, but implications.
William: Perhaps somewhere along the line God came to the realization that some kind of an 'out' had to be arranged...
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The Tanager
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Post #8
[Replying to post 3 by Willum]
You claimed that our sin was not our responsibility, but God's fault. I questioned that claim, arguing that both God and humans could be at fault in different ways. God is to blame for our ability to sin and we are to blame for choosing to sin. Jesus is about redeeming us from our choice to sin, which God is not responsible for.
You claimed that our sin was not our responsibility, but God's fault. I questioned that claim, arguing that both God and humans could be at fault in different ways. God is to blame for our ability to sin and we are to blame for choosing to sin. Jesus is about redeeming us from our choice to sin, which God is not responsible for.
