Is slavery a sin?

[Elijah John]

For debate:

1) Is slavery a sin?
2) Has slavery always been a sin?
3) Does slavery harmonize with the Golden Rule?
4) How would you like to be kept as a slave? (related to question # 3)
5) Was slavery OK because it was practiced in Bible times, and the Law of Moses sanctioned and regulated it?
6) Does any amount of regulation make slavery OK? Or is slavery an inherently irredeemable institution?
7) Paul said "anything not of faith is sin". Is slavery "of faith"?
8) Is the Bible's seeming approval of slavery as an institution evidence of a Bible flaw?

Please address any combination of these debate questions.

[Topaz27]

[Replying to post 39 by Eloi]

Eloi: Ok fine, I'll split my question into two parts.

1) Do you believe that owning someone is moral/ok?

2) According to the Bible, is God ok with a man owning another person?

[brianbbs67]

brianbbs67:
I'm pretty sure I understand what you mean. I also understand that it would be shocking to hear that, but that was my point. Not a lot of people want to be owned.

The idea of 7 years and then free, only applies to Jewish slaves btw. Slaves from other places can be owned forever.

I'm glad that you think that slavery is wrong, and I 100% agree with you. Slavery/sevitude/owning another human being is probably one of the worst things a person can do. So then why didn't God just say something along the lines of: "Thou shall not own another human"

I just find it incredibly hypocritical for a God to allow slavery/servitude/owning other people. Then later, basically say he's an omnibenevolent being.

Ehh, slavery is not the most important issue for man. Even while free, you are a slave to your job, your husband or wife and many others. If you lose your foundation, you are a slave to find the next job. Unless, you create it yourself.

[JehovahsWitness]

1) Do you believe that owning someone is moral/ok? That depends*

2) According to the Bible, is God ok with a man owning another person? Yes

* That depends on what is meant by owning, who is doing the "owning" and how that "ownweship" is exercised (see LINK for details)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 057#977057




RELATED POSTS

Why does the bible not repudiate slavery?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 781#368781

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 39 by Eloi]

Eloi: Ok fine, I'll split my question into two parts.

1) Do you believe that owning someone is moral/ok?

2) According to the Bible, is God ok with a man owning another person?

"Owning" doesn't have to be a dirty word. I have noticed that in the Bible it is used to depict the headship arrangement that God has set out for us in the Scriptures. A man is sometimes said to be his wife's "owner." God is sometimes referred to as Israel's "owner." It just means that someone has the right to be the final word on what someone can do.

Today an employer can be called, in the Biblical sense, the "owner" of his employees.

The way slaves have been treated in the last few hundred years is not the way God outlined for us in the Bible. His laws were not cruel, but made provisions for the well-being of any "slaves," or, employees.

[OnceConvinced]

And no, don't even bring up people doing jobs and paying taxes. I work full time and pay taxes, but when I'm not at work I can do anything and go anwhere I like. I can even quit my job if I want. I don't owe them money. I'm nothing like an indentured servant.

And you think there were options like that back then? The United States didn't exist back then. Do you think that healthcare existed? Welfare? Did you know that the only place close to that back then was Israel?

Please, tell us what a week as a foreign slave in Israel was like and don't forget to give your references to backup your story.

Folks, please examine the history of the world before making comparisons to how you live today. What you have today is not what was available back then. There was no getting fired at McDonald's and just going to Burger King to get another job.

We have the bible that tells us what it was like for slaves and servants in Israel:

Luke 12:47-48
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Exodus 21:20-21
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Exodus 21:26-27 If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. 27And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.


Exodus 21:4-6
4If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. 5But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,’ 6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently


Exodus 21;7-8
And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Deuteronomy 20:13-14
13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

Leviticus 25:45-46
…45Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/passage ... -testament

[Eloi]

[Replying to post 44 by onewithhim]

If someone is working for a company his time is not his time when he is working, and his intelectual work associated with the company DOES NOT belong to himself but to the owner of the company.

Children belong to their parents while minors. A person incapable of take decisions is in the hands of his tutor, who takes decisions for him ... included eutanasia related stuff. The state (the court) decides if a person must go to jail or not. Everyone must follow the laws made by others. Women are said to be the ones who decide on the life of the baby inside them ... etc.

"Owning" can have many senses depending on what is involved, and if it is ethic, moral, or whatever qualification someone want to give to it, is just personal opinion. God is the maximun authority and he can decide whatever He decides, and whoever does not want to follow His laws will be judge the way He'll decide, others like it or not.

Before pretending to judge God, it would be more productive for non-theistic persons to control theirselves, their children, etc ... From the non-theistic point of view, would not be it the real problem they should be trying to solve?

[Tcg]

Before pretending to judge God, it would be more productive for non-theistic persons to control theirselves, their children, etc .

There is no pretense involved. Biblegod never stated that slavery was wrong, therefore according to that god, slavery isn't a sin. Thankfully, many humans have better morals than Biblegod and state that slavery is indeed wrong.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

We have the bible that tells us what it was like for slaves and servants in Israel:

Luke 12:47-48
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

This is one of Jesus illustrations not a directive or a command. Yes there were slave masters who ignored the law and beat their slave, there are employers who ignore the law and rape their employees... your point Is? That people ignore the law?

[JehovahsWitness]

THESE PASSAGES SHOW THE SUPERIORITY (AND BENEVOLENCE ) OF THE MOSAIC LAW REGARDING SLAVERY

Slaves were protected by the law and anyone killing their own slave faced the death penalty

Exodus 21:20-21
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.


If a slaveowner so much as broke a tooth of his slave, the slave walked free

Exodus 21:26-27 If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. 27And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.

Slavery was so agreeable for some they voluntarily chose to remain slaves for life

Exodus 21:4-6
4If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. 5But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,’ 6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently



Masters could not sell their slavegirls nor divorce them if they are taken as a wife

Exodus 21;7-8
And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.


Military campaigns spared the young girls, who would be accepted as fully integrated citizens ]

Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Deuteronomy 20:13-14
13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

Leviticus 25:45-46
…45Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

Go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHILD ABUSE and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

[2timothy316]

And no, don't even bring up people doing jobs and paying taxes. I work full time and pay taxes, but when I'm not at work I can do anything and go anwhere I like. I can even quit my job if I want. I don't owe them money. I'm nothing like an indentured servant.

And you think there were options like that back then? The United States didn't exist back then. Do you think that healthcare existed? Welfare? Did you know that the only place close to that back then was Israel?

Please, tell us what a week as a foreign slave in Israel was like and don't forget to give your references to backup your story.

Folks, please examine the history of the world before making comparisons to how you live today. What you have today is not what was available back then. There was no getting fired at McDonald's and just going to Burger King to get another job.

We have the bible that tells us what it was like for slaves and servants in Israel:

Luke 12:47-48
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

You do know who the slaves were Jesus was talking about here right? It wasn't a slave during this time on Earth but in the future when during Jesus coming. You've given a great example of cherry picking and eisegesis though. Both of which are flawed uses of the Bible.

Exodus 21:20-21
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

This was not a weekly thing. This was rare because of the risk of the master losing his own life in the process. Try again proving what a week was like as a slave.

Exodus 21:26-27 If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. 27And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.

Again, another reason not to beat slaves. You could lose your labor force. This too was not a weekly occurrence. In your mind I'm sure you think a slave was beaten daily because you watch too much TV, but historically in Israel it was not common.

Exodus 21:4-6
4If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. 5But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,’ 6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently

Yep that was the law. It was done once and not weekly. People pierced their ears back in those days so this was not much different. Don't go thinking that they went to the local Mall to get this done with those tiny spikes they use today. Also let me underline something too. Why did this happen? Because the slave said ‘I love my master,’ But that is not what you see is it? This scripture backfired on you from what you hoped it would accomplish. I'm sure a slave that says, "I love my master" doesn't compute in your mind. yet the truth is there were excellent slave owners back in those days that treated their labor force very well.

Exodus 21;7-8
And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

And if the person that bought her doesn't treat her according to the law, than verse 11 says, "then she is to go free without paying any money." A father that has sold his daughter to a man is for her protection. Some were given to their sons as wives and then given rights as a daughter of the family. (Ex. 21:9)

Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Not a weekly occurrence nor was this a law for slaves. This had to do with the women of Midian "who by Baʹlaam’s word induced the Israelites to commit unfaithfulness." (Numbers 31:16)
You're cherry picking here yet again. This time your quoted scripture has to do more with adultery. The young women would have died if not taken with Israelites. At least then they could be wives and absorbed into Israel. After all their adulterous mothers and fathers were just put to death.

Deuteronomy 20:13-14
13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

Same as above. This was not a weekly occurrence. Reminder, the cities destroyed by Israel were not Disneyland. There were full of violence, sex slavery and human sacrifice. Don't go thinking these nations were peaceful places minding their own business. They were warmongers and bandits.

Leviticus 25:45-46
…45Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

Yep because foreign slaves were sometimes slaves for life. But they still had to be treated well because "God hates those that love violence" and on them "he will rain down snares; Fire and sulfur and a scorching wind. (Psalm 11:5, 6) Still think a person that enjoyed beating slaves got away with it? How about a person today that loves to watch movies and enjoy watching people get killed in bloody ways? They love the violence. That person would be worse than a Law abiding slave owner in Israel.

How much do you know about the nations that surrounded Israel?