Their witness does not agree

[Athetotheist]

"Now the chief priests and all the council sought testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but found none. For many bore false witness against him, but their testimonies did not agree." (Mark 14:55-56)

If the testimony of those witnesses was to be rejected because it didn't agree, how can anyone be blamed for rejecting the resurrection accounts in the gospels for the same reason?

[Athetotheist]

Why does Luke have the women say that they did not see Jesus himself when Matthew says that he appeared to them as they ran back to the disciples?

Could you please provide a reference biblical for this statement. Thanks,



JW

"Moreover, certain women from among us also astonished us, because they had been early to the memorial tomb but did not find his body and they came saying they had also seen a supernatural sight of angels, who said he is alive." (Luke 24:22-23)

The author of Luke begins his account (1:3) by saying that it is "akribos", which means exact, accurate or diligent. If the women had seen the risen Jesus, Luke would have had to include that in his account in order for it to be exact, accurate and diligent.

[Athetotheist]

WHY DID MARY NOT SEE THE ANGELS?

♦ ANSWER: One logical explaintion would be she did not see the angels because they were not there. When Mary (and her companions) first arrived there were no angels present only the stone rolled away from the entrance. It seems Mary took off running as soon as she saw the tomb was empty.

John 20:1, 2 ....she saw that the stone had already been taken away from the tomb. So she came running to Simon Peter and to the other disciple, for whom Jesus had affection

The other women remained perplexed at the site having assertained the tomb was indeed empty. It was at this moment two angels ("men") appeared...

Luke 24: 3--4 ....when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were perplexed about this, look! two men in shining garments stood by them.

one angel reassured them and invited them in (again) to inspect the tomb

Matthew 28: 5-6 But the angel said to the women: “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus ...He is not here, for he was raised up, just as he said. Come, see the place where he was lying

.... the second angel one angel sitting where Jesus had lain ..

Mark 16: 5 When they entered into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, ... He said to them: “Do not be stunned.You are looking for Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ who was executed on the stake. He was raised up. He is not here. Look, here is the place where they laid him...

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 703#894703

Matthew says that the stone was rolled away by an angel who then sat on the rolled-away stone. If the women didn't see him when they got to the tomb, where had he gone? Did he roll the stone back and then run off and hide? He couldn't have shown up only after the women had entered the tomb, because then his invitation to "come see the place where he was lying" (Mt. 28:6), which they had already done, would have made no sense (he doesn't tell them to inspect the tomb "again").

If Mary ran off as soon as she saw the tomb empty, how could she have been with the other women when Jesus appeared to them in Matthew? And if she wasn't with them at that point, where was she?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

John has Mary Magdalene go to the tomb and find it open and empty. He then has her run back and tell Simon that someone has moved the body. He then has her follow Simon and the other disciple back to the tomb. He then has her remain at the tomb, see an angel inside who says nothing to her beyond asking her why she is weeping. John then has Mary see Jesus, mistake him for the gardener and ask him to turn his body over to her.

Up to this point, Mary still believes that Jesus is dead. According to John, she is told nothing about the resurrection by anyone before she sees Jesus himself. The only angel in John's account does nothing but sit in the tomb and ask Mary a question, so according to John there is no angelic announcement of the resurrection.

[Zzyzx]

.
A bunch of bereaved and possibly hysterical people running around telling weird tales -- doesn't seem like much of a basis on which to develop a religion. But 2000 years later there are still people ready to defend the 'back to life' tale as verbatim truth

[Difflugia]

Matthew says that the stone was rolled away by an angel who then sat on the rolled-away stone. If the women didn't see him when they got to the tomb, where had he gone? Did he roll the stone back and then run off and hide? He couldn't have shown up only after the women had entered the tomb, because then his invitation to "come see the place where he was lying" (Mt. 28:6), which they had already done, would have made no sense (he doesn't tell them to inspect the tomb "again").

If Mary ran off as soon as she saw the tomb empty, how could she have been with the other women when Jesus appeared to them in Matthew? And if she wasn't with them at that point, where was she?

The apologetic solution is to treat each statement as an independent event rather than a unified story. Instead of acknowledging that Matthew wrote a cohesive narrative, inerrantists treat him as a four-year-old that shouts disconnected events as he thinks of them. Unfortunately for inerrantists, reading Matthew as it was intended opens Pandora's box. If Matthew wasn't slavish to facts when telling his version of the story, then maybe the virgin birth was meant to be allegory and didn't actually happen. Maybe gospel authors all felt comfortable allegorizing parts of their narratives.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why does Luke have the women say that they did not see Jesus himself ...

"Moreover, certain women from among us also astonished us, because they had been early to the memorial tomb but did not find his body and they came saying they had also seen a supernatural sight of angels, who said he is alive." (Luke 24:22-23)

The only thing Luke indicates is that is that the women are reported as having said they did not see a body but did see angels. I see no negative statement about seeing Jesus in the above quotation.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Matthew says that the stone was rolled away by an angel who then sat on the rolled-away stone. If the women didn't see him when they got to the tomb, where had he gone?

I have no idea where he went. But if the Hebrew scriptures are any indication, angels a) can move from one location to another and b) can appear and disappear at will. Whether they were there but did not make themselves visible or not there (ie they were elsewhere) it is impossible to tell from the text.

Harmonizing the various accounts, we have two angels. Where they all were or when they appeared, we cannot say for sure, but it is illogical to conclude everyone remained entirely immobile for the entire morning. As you point out, if they were invited to go inside they were outside at the moment of the invitation.

There is nothing to render it impossible that the women looked inside the tomb without going in and found it empty or were brave enough to go in and then came out again.

To learn more please go to posts related to...

BIBLICAL SEQUENCING, INERRANCY and ...THE RESSURECTION EVENTS

[JehovahsWitness]

If Mary ran off as soon as she saw the tomb empty, how could she have been with the other women when Jesus appeared to them in Matthew?

You'll have to provide a quote for this. If this is not already covered by my previous answer I will surely consider responding.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

John has Mary Magdalene go to the tomb and find it open and empty. He then has her run back and tell Simon that someone has moved the body. He then has her follow Simon and the other disciple back to the tomb. He then has her remain at the tomb, see an angel inside who says nothing to her beyond asking her why she is weeping. John then has Mary see Jesus, mistake him for the gardener and ask him to turn his body over to her.

Pretty good summary, yes.

Up to this point, Mary still believes that Jesus is dead. According to John, she is told nothing about the resurrection by anyone before she sees Jesus himself. The only angel in John's account does nothing but sit in the tomb and ask Mary a question, so according to John there is no angelic announcement of the resurrection.

So your point is? ...

[Athetotheist]

If Mary ran off as soon as she saw the tomb empty, how could she have been with the other women when Jesus appeared to them in Matthew?

You'll have to provide a quote for this. If this is not already covered by my previous answer I will surely consider responding.


JW

In your post #18 above you stated, "It seems Mary took off running as soon as she saw the tomb was empty."