Their witness does not agree

[Athetotheist]

"Now the chief priests and all the council sought testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but found none. For many bore false witness against him, but their testimonies did not agree." (Mark 14:55-56)

If the testimony of those witnesses was to be rejected because it didn't agree, how can anyone be blamed for rejecting the resurrection accounts in the gospels for the same reason?

[Athetotheist]

Matthew says that the stone was rolled away by an angel who then sat on the rolled-away stone. If the women didn't see him when they got to the tomb, where had he gone?

I have no idea where he went. But if the Hebrew scriptures are any indication, angels a) can move from one location to another and b) can appear and disappear at will. Whether they were there but did not make themselves visible or not there (ie they were elsewhere) it is impossible to tell from the text.

Harmonizing the various accounts, we have two angels. Where they all were or when they appeared, we cannot say for sure, but it is illogical to conclude everyone remained entirely immobile for the entire morning. As you point out, if they were invited to go inside they were outside at the moment of the invitation.



There is nothing to render it impossible that the women looked inside the tomb without going in and found it empty or were brave enough to go in and then came out again.

We *can* say for sure where the angels [supposedly] were and when they [supposedly] appeared, because the gospel accounts give us that specific information. You can't ignore it just because its inconsistency is inconvenient.

[Athetotheist]

John has Mary Magdalene go to the tomb and find it open and empty. He then has her run back and tell Simon that someone has moved the body. He then has her follow Simon and the other disciple back to the tomb. He then has her remain at the tomb, see an angel inside who says nothing to her beyond asking her why she is weeping. John then has Mary see Jesus, mistake him for the gardener and ask him to turn his body over to her.

Pretty good summary, yes.

Up to this point, Mary still believes that Jesus is dead. According to John, she is told nothing about the resurrection by anyone before she sees Jesus himself. The only angel in John's account does nothing but sit in the tomb and ask Mary a question, so according to John there is no angelic announcement of the resurrection.

So your point is? ...

My point is that in the Synoptic accounts, Mary is told about the resurrection before this point.

[JehovahsWitness]

If Mary ran off as soon as she saw the tomb empty, how could she have been with the other women when Jesus appeared to them in Matthew?

Emphasis MINE

I'm sorry, I wasnt clear. I would like you to provide me with a quote from the bible that specifically says Mary was "with the other women when Jesus appeared to them (The women)"

My point is that in the Synoptic accounts, Mary is told about the resurrection before this point.

It really is important that you provide a reference to support the points you are making.

We *can* say for sure where the angels [supposedly] were and when they [supposedly] appeared, because the gospel accounts give us that specific information.

I await some textual evidence to prove it can be ascertained when the angels appeared in the course of their exchange with the women and exactly where they were standing/sitting prior to, and for the duration of, said conversation. As well as where the women were in relation to the tomb and the angels prior, during and following the exchange.


NOTE "supposedly sure" is an oxymoron.


JW

[Athetotheist]

If Mary ran off as soon as she saw the tomb empty, how could she have been with the other women when Jesus appeared to them in Matthew?

Emphasis MINE

I'm sorry, I wasnt clear. I would like you to provide me with a quote from the bible that specifically says Mary was "with the other women when Jesus appeared to them (The women)"

My point is that in the Synoptic accounts, Mary is told about the resurrection before this point.

It really is important that you provide a reference to support the points you are making.

We *can* say for sure where the angels [supposedly] were and when they [supposedly] appeared, because the gospel accounts give us that specific information.

I await some textual evidence to prove it can be ascertained when the angels appeared in the course of their exchange with the women and exactly where they were standing/sitting prior to, and for the duration of, said conversation. As well as where the women were in relation to the tomb and the angels prior, during and following the exchange.


NOTE "supposedly sure" is an oxymoron.


JW

Mary Magdalene and the other Mary come to see the tomb (Matthew 28:1). An angel comes down from heaven, rolls the stone away and sits on it [obviously while the women are there] (v.2). He speaks to the women, one of whom is Mary Magdalene, telling "them" [the women, one of whom is Mary Magdalene] to go quickly to tell the disciples of the resurrection (v.7). As "they" [ the women, one of whom is Mary Magdalene] are going, Jesus meets "them" [ the women, one of whom is Mary Magdalene]. (v. 9).

The other gospel accounts give their own specific details; all you have to do is read them. Mark's angel was sitting in the tomb when the women entered. Luke's two angels suddenly appeared standing by the women while they were in the tomb. Specific enough?

So how could Mary Magdalene be in a group of women who saw however many angels there supposedly* were, then go back and tell Simon Peter that someone had removed their master's body?

*[NOTE: I didn't write "supposedly sure"; I wrote that the angels were "supposedly THERE".]

[JehovahsWitness]

As "they" [ the women, one of whom is Mary Magdalene] are going, Jesus meets "them" [ the women, one of whom is Mary Magdalene]. (v. 9).

Does the verse specificallly say Mary was still with the other women when they met Jesus?


JW

[Athetotheist]

As "they" [ the women, one of whom is Mary Magdalene] are going, Jesus meets "them" [ the women, one of whom is Mary Magdalene]. (v. 9).

Does the verse specificallly say Mary was still with the other women when they met Jesus?


JW

Does the verse specifically say that Mary *wasn't* still with the other women? Since none of the Synoptic writers have Mary separate herself from the others, I would say that is where the burden of proof lies (only John writes as if Mary is alone, and he doesn't have any angel give any message).

[JehovahsWitness]

As "they" [ the women, one of whom is Mary Magdalene] are going, Jesus meets "them" [ the women, one of whom is Mary Magdalene]. (v. 9).

Does the verse specificallly say Mary was still with the other women when they met Jesus?


JW

Does the verse specifically say that Mary *wasn't* still with the other women?

No... so we are left with our powers of deduction*: We can deduce that Mary indeed left the group at some point and was not present since her she was clearly unaware of the risen Jesus during her initial report. Further adding weight to this deduction is the fact that only Mary is spoken of as having ran to report to Peter and John the empty tomb and not all the women. This deduction, which is not rendered impossible by the text since she isn't specifically mentioned as being present with the women during their encounter with Christ) harmonized the four gospels accounts.

* TO DEDUCE

To arrive at (a fact or a conclusion) by reasoning; draw as a logical conclusion.

JW

To learn more please go to posts related to...

BIBLICAL SEQUENCING, INERRANCY and ...THE RESSURECTION EVENTS

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

So the other women had their encounter with Jesus while Mary [who still believed that Jesus was dead] was running ahead of them to tell the disciples that his body had been moved?

If that's the scenario you're suggesting, then let's take our deductive reasoning even further. How could Jesus have appeared to the other women BEFORE he appeared to Mary when Mark says he appeared to Mary first (16:9) and John says he didn't appear to Mary until she went back to the tomb (20:14)?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 38 by Athetotheist]

Mark 16: 9 is generally agreed to be a later addition and not part of the original text.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

The gospel in reality ends at verse 8.


JW

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to post 39 by JehovahsWitness]

It's not part of the original text, but it was accepted into the canon.