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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:34 pm
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Is slavery a sin?

Like this post (2): Aetixintro, Topaz27
For debate:

1) Is slavery a sin?
2) Has slavery always been a sin?
3) Does slavery harmonize with the Golden Rule?
4) How would you like to be kept as a slave? (related to question # 3)
5) Was slavery OK because it was practiced in Bible times, and the Law of Moses sanctioned and regulated it?
6) Does any amount of regulation make slavery OK? Or is slavery an inherently irredeemable institution?
7) Paul said "anything not of faith is sin". Is slavery "of faith"?
8) Is the Bible's seeming approval of slavery as an institution evidence of a Bible flaw?

Please address any combination of these debate questions.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:42 pm
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Re: Is slavery a sin?

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Elijah John wrote:

For debate:

1) Is slavery a sin?



Sin is defined as:

    noun: sin; plural noun: sins
    an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

Unless one can point to a divine law that forbids slavery, then the answer is no.


Tcg

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:51 pm
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According to the Bible slavery is totally ok, in fact God put rules around it.

He, and many servants of God, mention several times throughout the Bible to follow thy masters, even the cruel ones (Eph 6:5)

A common argument was that it's just servitude, but the Bible states that a master can beat his "servant" with a rod, as long as he doesn't die in a few days. (Exodus 21:20-21)

It is clear that God is ok with slavery/servitude, whatever makes you feel better.

Another good question to ask: Is slavery moral?

No, but God thinks it is.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:08 pm
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Like this post (1): onewithhim
Slavery under the of Mosaic Law was not a sin.

In most cases it was an alternative to avoid being stuck in poverty.

To start here are some laws for slavery:

They must be allowed to rest and worship. (Ex 20:10)
If a person killed a slave, that person was then put to death. (Ex 21:12)
If a person kidnapped a person so as to sell them, they were to be put to death. (Ex 21:16) (so if the Israelites had acted like the European slave trade then they would have been sinning.)
If a slave owner does any permanent harm to a slave, the slave was to go free. (Ex 21:26, 27)
Slaves could even eat food meant only for the priest if a priest had a slave. (Lev 22:10, 11)
Women captured in war were either to be cared for by a man that wants them as a wife or they are to be completely let go. They cannot be forced into slavery, the option was available to them. (Deut 21:10-14)
On the seventh year of a person's slavery they must be let free if they wish. Every 50 years all slaves must be set free. (Exodus 21:2; Leviticus 25:10; Deuteronomy 15:12)

Quote:
How would you like to be kept as a slave?

I am a slave, to Jehovah. (Rom 12:11) Also, if I lived during that time and hit a rough patch, I'd make a B line to Israel to get back on my feet like Ruth and Naomi did.
It would be voluntary, much like slavery was in most cases in Israel.
The only other way to become a slave was to be a PoW. Which is really not as bad considering what other nations did to their captives. Even then, the captive slaves were to be treated well. They got all the same protections as a voluntary slave.

The main reason slavery was allowed was so that an able-bodied person could get back on their feet and didn't allow for them just do nothing and expect to be cared for. Also, perhaps not everyone in a conquered nation was deemed fit for destruction by God.


Last edited by 2timothy316 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:28 pm
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Re: Is slavery a sin?

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Elijah John wrote:

For debate:

1) Is slavery a sin?
2) Has slavery always been a sin?
3) Does slavery harmonize with the Golden Rule?
4) How would you like to be kept as a slave? (related to question # 3)
5) Was slavery OK because it was practiced in Bible times, and the Law of Moses sanctioned and regulated it?
6) Does any amount of regulation make slavery OK? Or is slavery an inherently irredeemable institution?
7) Paul said "anything not of faith is sin". Is slavery "of faith"?
8) Is the Bible's seeming approval of slavery as an institution evidence of a Bible flaw?

Please address any combination of these debate questions.

It depends on what you mean by "slavery," or what the manifestation of that slavery is. To explain:

    * Slavery in the sense that one employs another and is redemptive in nature is not a sinful manifestation of slavery.

    * Slavery in the sense that the the slave's/employee's person-hood is taken away or stolen by his/her master/employer is most definitely oppression and a sinful manifestation of slavery.

This explanation should answer all your questions, or you should be able to answer them for yourself based on it. This was always the case, and still is today.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:41 pm
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Like this post (1): 2timothy316
If being slave is a sin, then you don't want to be a slave of Christ. Sad

2 Tim. 2:23 Further, turn down foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing they produce fights. 24 But a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil, 25 instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed; as perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, 26 and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one.

Christians don't play any role to change the systems of this world; they must follow the rules of the government as much as they don't disagree with the divine principles. Slavery in Israel was similar to the modern employment system ... very similar. At present, who does not own a business must work for another as if he were his slave ... and the system must be accepted as it is. The day will come when people can enjoy the fruits of their own work:

Eph. 6:5 YOU slaves, be obedient to those who are [YOUR] masters in a fleshly sense, with fear and trembling in the sincerity of YOUR hearts, as to the Christ, 6 not by way of eye-service as men pleasers, but as Christ’s slaves, doing the will of God whole-souled. 7 Be slaves with good inclinations, as to Jehovah, and not to men, 8 for YOU know that each one, whatever good he may do, will receive this back from Jehovah, whether he be slave or freeman. 9 Also, YOU masters, keep doing the same things to them, letting up on the threatening, for YOU know that the Master of both them and YOU is in the heavens, and there is no partiality with him.

Is. 65:17 “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart. 18 But exult, YOU people, and be joyful forever in what I am creating. For here I am creating Jerusalem a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation. 19 And I will be joyful in Jerusalem and exult in my people; and no more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or the sound of a plaintive cry.”
20 “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him. 21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them. 24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer; while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear.
25 “The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” Jehovah has said.

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MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:42 pm
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Re: Is slavery a sin?

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[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Slavery is wrong. Slavery has always been wrong. Slavery will always be wrong.

In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry the foundation for the Law and the Prophets is described in the following:
Matthew 7
12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment.
39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole law and the prophets.”

Slavery clearly goes against that foundation.
Slavery flies in the face of "treat people the same way you want them to treat you". 
Slavery flies in the face of "‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF". 
Slavery flies in the face of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. 

Perversely it seems like those committed to the idea of the "inerrancy" of the Bible defend slavery.

One thing that needs to be understood is that in ancient biblical times, slavery was basically broken into two groups.
1) Hebrews that were indentured servants. 
2) Non-Hebrews that were permanent slaves and were considered property. 

Those who try to defend slavery often try to cite "protections" given to the slaves of that period. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of those protections only applied to indentured servants. Defenders of slavery often disingenuously attribute them to chattel slaves as well.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:00 pm
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Like this post (1): onewithhim
Do not distort the meaning of the comments ... It is not the same to defend slavery than to disagree with those who think that God is unfair because He have regulated the system within their chosen nation instead of eliminating it. If as a foreigner I had lived in those times, I would have preferred to be a slave in Israel than a freeman in pagan lands.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:21 pm
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Eloi wrote:

Do not distort the meaning of the comments ... It is not the same to defend slavery than to disagree with those who think that God is unfair because He have regulated the system within their chosen nation instead of eliminating it. If as a foreigner I had lived in those times, I would have preferred to be a slave in Israel than a freeman in pagan lands.

Its kind of like that ugly couch or chair we kept when we were young. (Don't deny you had one! lol) While it is not ideal and most of the time it was someone else's furniture first, we held on to it because it served a purpose. We were waiting for a better job to come along or a better house to live in before we got rid of it.

Much like that furniture, slavery did serve a purpose in Israel. Was it ideal? No. Is it what God would want? No. Yet He did make the best use of it until He moves everyone into a better place, a paradise earth, when that old thing is finally out and in the trash.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:34 pm
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Like this post (1): Aetixintro
[Replying to post 8 by Eloi]

To frame it as "God is unfair because He have regulated the system within their chosen nation instead of eliminating it" is a complete mischaracterization and incredibly misleading.

The reality is what God did in the following is expressly give permission for chattel slavery. This is not merely a case of not "eliminating it":
Leviticus 25
44“ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life...[/quote][/b]

There is no reasonable defense for this.

The following describes the rules governing Hebrew indentured servitude:
[quote] Leviticus 25
39 “ ‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.41Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
47“ ‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigner’s clan, 48they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves. 50They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are to compute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.
54“ ‘Even if someone is not redeemed in any of these ways, they and their children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

As I pointed out in my previous post, for the chattel slaves the "regulations" were few to none.

Leviticus 25:39 draws a clear distinction between Hebrew indentured servants and slaves: "...do not make them work as slaves." They are not to be worked as SLAVES. And further down, they are not to be sold as SLAVES or treated as SLAVES. Slavery for which God expressly gave permission.

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