Civil Debates on Christianity and Religions

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:06 am
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Does all NT instruction apply to Christians today?

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Does all instruction given to Christians in the New Testament, unless noted as applying only to a specific group of people, apply to Christians today? Yes or no?

I'm including all instruction, regardless of whether it was from Jesus, Paul, John the Baptist, etc.

If the answer is no, which specific instruction would you say does NOT apply to Christians today?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:37 am
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Re: Does all NT instruction apply to Christians today?

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[Replying to post 1 by RRL]

I believe so, yes absolutely. The "new testament", the Christian Greek scriptures contain all the commandments, directives and instructions for Christian Living.


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:14 am
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The whole New Testament is a guide for Christians, but in some cases instructions are given to individuals for their specific setting. Modern Christians must look at the underlying principles that guide those instructions, even if the instructions do not apply in the way which they were originally stated.

For instance in Luke 17:14, after healing ten men with leprosy, Jesus instructed the men to “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” The underlying principles of gratitude and obedience in Luke 17:11-19 are important. The specific command to “show yourselves to the priests” does not apply to Christians today even though that is not explicitly stated in the text.

Or again, Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 that a woman should “cover her head” when she prays or prophesies. That command relied on a specific cultural standard. When a woman uncovered her head she was actively looking for a romantic partner. Paul wrote that such activities were not appropriate during a worship service. In Western nations today a head covering does not have the same significance. There are ways that women and men can dress that is focused on attracting the opposite sex, which should not be the attitude one takes to a worship service, but head covering is not part of it as a rule. The underlying principle still applies to modern Christians even though the specific instruction does not.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:43 am
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bjs wrote:

Or again, Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 that a woman should “cover her head” when she prays or prophesies. That command relied on a specific cultural standard. When a woman uncovered her head she was actively looking for a romantic partner.

Kindly provide references to the 'cultural standard' mentioned -- when, where, to whom applied.

bjs wrote:

The underlying principle still applies to modern Christians even though the specific instruction does not.

Is this to say that biblical 'rules' can be changed to fit current conditions?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:19 am
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Re: Does all NT instruction apply to Christians today?

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[Replying to post 1 by RRL]

How about Paul's admonition that women should stay silent in Church? Doubtful Paul would approve of women preachers or priests, but there you have it. It doesn't mean Paul was right.

It seems ironic that Evangelicals claim to follow the NT and consider it inerrant, but still we have some very prominent female Evangelical preachers on the scene today. That part of Paul's teaching they ignore.

Either Paul wasn't so inerrant or these female Evangelical preachers and their supporters are being disobedient to the NT. "Picking and choosing"/"cherry picking". Or is there a third option I'm missing?


Last edited by Elijah John on Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:40 am
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Re: Does all NT instruction apply to Christians today?

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Elijah John wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by RRL]

How about Paul's admonition that women should stay silent in Church? Doubtful Paul would approve of women preachers or priests, but there you have it. It doesn't mean Paul was right.

It seems ironic that Evangelicals claim to follow the NT and consider it inerrant, but still we have some very prominent female Evangelical preachers on the scene today. That part of Paul's teaching they ignore.

Either Paul wasn't so inerrant or these female Evangelical preachers and their supporters are being disobedient to the NT. "Picking and choosing" or "cherry picking". Or is there a third option I'm missing?



As bjs has done above, some would say that these were cultural based. That they would have only applied to the time and culture Paul was addressing.

The problem of course is that Paul never bothered to mention these cultural issues and in fact gives other reasons for these rules.


Tcg

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:11 pm
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Re: Does all NT instruction apply to Christians today?

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Tcg wrote:

Elijah John wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by RRL]

How about Paul's admonition that women should stay silent in Church? Doubtful Paul would approve of women preachers or priests, but there you have it. It doesn't mean Paul was right.

It seems ironic that Evangelicals claim to follow the NT and consider it inerrant, but still we have some very prominent female Evangelical preachers on the scene today. That part of Paul's teaching they ignore.

Either Paul wasn't so inerrant or these female Evangelical preachers and their supporters are being disobedient to the NT. "Picking and choosing" or "cherry picking". Or is there a third option I'm missing?



As bjs has done above, some would say that these were cultural based. That they would have only applied to the time and culture Paul was addressing.

The problem of course is that Paul never bothered to mention these cultural issues and in fact gives other reasons for these rules.


Tcg


Agree, it seems Paul was not aware of his own cultural bias. He seems to have mistaken that bias for Divine imperative.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm
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Re: Does all NT instruction apply to Christians today?

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RRL wrote:

Does all instruction given to Christians in the New Testament, unless noted as applying only to a specific group of people, apply to Christians today? Yes or no?


If the instruction is given to disciples of Jesus (=”Christian”). And as it is said, if one loves others, he fulfils the law.

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

I think important thing is also to understand why to obey the law. It is not to gain salvation, or eternal life. The right reason to obey is that one loves God and wants freely to do God’s will, because understands it is good.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.

1 John 5:3

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:56 pm
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Re: Does all NT instruction apply to Christians today?

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Peace to you,

RRL wrote:

Does all instruction given to Christians in the New Testament, unless noted as applying only to a specific group of people, apply to Christians today? Yes or no?

I'm including all instruction, regardless of whether it was from Jesus, Paul, John the Baptist, etc.

If the answer is no, which specific instruction would you say does NOT apply to Christians today?



No, all instruction in the NT does not apply to all Christians.


Christ's commands are for all Christians - keeping in mind what bjs said earlier (those things that relate to the law covenant as well as to the the physical temple which no longer exists, as well as to the priesthood of the law covenant... these things were part of the first covenant and no longer apply. The physical temple was a physical representation of the spiritual reality: the Body of Christ, within whom God dwells, and which is also made of the people who are in Christ). Edited to add: Keeping in mind also that some of His instructions were for specific people, to show them where they lacked (such as the rich young man to whom Christ said to sell all his possessions and then 'come follow me'). People have different strengths and weaknesses; therefore, people have different things that they need to work on. Christ knows this and can teach/discipline/instruct us accordingly.


Love is the law; Christ emphasized this; and love DOES apply in any situation, culture, time, and people. Love being the law just makes sense to me, since God IS love, naturally the law that comes from Him would also BE love. There is also no law against love (Galatians 5:22, 23), and love covers over a multitude of sins (1Peter 4:8; Proverbs 10:12).

Christ said the two most important commandments are:

Love God with one's whole heart, mind, soul.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

He also said:

Love also your enemies (in order to be sons of your father in heaven).
Love one another just as Christ has loved us.


**


He also said that we are to eat His body and drink His blood (the bread that represents His flesh; the wine that represents His blood). That if we do this, we will remain in Him and Him in us; that He will raise us up on the last day; and that we will have life in us, eternal life. He also said that unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have no life in us. So this is not really a small thing, even if some think so. But even if it were a small thing: He who is faithful in what is least, will be faithful in much.

Christ also set an example of feet washing, and told the apostles to do the same (and this applies to all disciples, since Christ later also told the apostles to teach all disciples to obey everything that He had commanded the apostles).



**


Some things Paul taught only applied to the people he wrote (in specific situations of that time and place). Paul did not even command that a woman must cover her head. People seem to have stopped reading his words after Corinth 1:10, because by the end of his spiel, he is saying that her hair is itself a covering.

11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.




**


Then there is also his 'woman should be silent in Church' issue. Paul gave that command (and it is his own command, he makes that clear when he says "I" do not permit...), not because that is a rule from God... but in an effort to keep the congregation (women and men) safe (safe from Roman law and safe from the Jews persecuting them).

A - With rare exceptions, Roman women were not permitted to speak in public. So any woman speaking in public, outside, may have been in trouble with the law of the land.

B - Jewish women were not permitted to speak or teach in the synagogue (even in the State of Israel now, women are fighting just to be able to read from the Torah at the wall). Remember that the early (Jewish) Christians were in hiding from the Jews (who could hand them over to the Romans). Paul would have been in a good position to know about what those persecutors were looking for.


It was not about rules from Christ. Because we have freedom in Christ. And both men and women are equal in God, just as both men and women can speak in the Church (which is NOT a religion; but which is the Body of Christ, made of people, both men and women); and just as both men and women will reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom.



Hope that helps some!


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:16 am
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Re: Does all NT instruction apply to Christians today?

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tam wrote:
Then there is also his 'woman should be silent in Church' issue. Paul gave that command (and it is his own command, he makes that clear when he says "I" do not permit...), not because that is a rule from God... but in an effort to keep the congregation (women and men) safe (safe from Roman law and safe from the Jews persecuting them).

A - With rare exceptions, Roman women were not permitted to speak in public. So any woman speaking in public, outside, may have been in trouble with the law of the land.

B - Jewish women were not permitted to speak or teach in the synagogue (even in the State of Israel now, women are fighting just to be able to read from the Torah at the wall). Remember that the early (Jewish) Christians were in hiding from the Jews (who could hand them over to the Romans). Paul would have been in a good position to know about what those persecutors were looking for.


It was not about rules from Christ. Because we have freedom in Christ. And both men and women are equal in God, just as both men and women can speak in the Church (which is NOT a religion; but which is the Body of Christ, made of people, both men and women); and just as both men and women will reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom.



Hope that helps some!


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy


Tam, what about 1st Corinthians 14:33-37?

"33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized."

Hmmmmm. Houston, looks like Tam has a problem on her hands. Lol

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