The age of miracles

[Athetotheist]

It's not really my intention to make a whole thread out of this; I just mean to pose a question as a point of curiosity: Can anyone refer me to textual evidence that the age of miracles was to end with the passing of the apostles?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 126 by Checkpoint]

The question I have with that is, do we follow Paul or Jesus? eg, Did Jesus ever say they would end? Or only Paul, who claimed he only prophecies in part?

Jesus didn't mention the gifts of the Spirit because they hadn't been given to anyone yet. It was after Jesus ascended to heaven, on the day of Pentecost.

As has been said, we need to be familiar with all Scripture. If we were, we would have picked up the fact that there was always an apostle (or Paul) present when people were anointed with Holy Spirit and received whatever gifts they might receive. After the apostles were gone, there is no record of any gifts being conferred upon anyone.



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[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 126 by Checkpoint]

The question I have with that is, do we follow Paul or Jesus? eg, Did Jesus ever say they would end? Or only Paul, who claimed he only prophecies in part?

Do you not believe Jesus chose Paul as an Apostle?

Yes, I believe that he was chosen. I don't believe he ever spoke against what Jesus said or said Jesus changed his message. Others read him that way. But, Peter warns us against that thing. 2nd Peter 3:14-18.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 126 by Checkpoint]

The question I have with that is, do we follow Paul or Jesus? eg, Did Jesus ever say they would end? Or only Paul, who claimed he only prophecies in part?

Do you not believe Jesus chose Paul as an Apostle?

Yes, I believe that he was chosen. I don't believe he ever spoke against what Jesus said or said Jesus changed his message. Others read him that way. But, Peter warns us against that thing. 2nd Peter 3:14-18.

.so what do you make of Paul explainjng that the law has been abolished?

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to post 119 by onewithhim]

[Replying to post 119 by onewithhim]

[Replying to post 113 by Sojournerofthearth]
I asked you to respond specifically to what I posted about God speaking to himself, sending himself, anointing himself, and giving himself commands and instructions on how to do things. Will you do so?

I thought I did. I guess I got too bogged down in technicality and loquacity. I’m afraid the art of brevity is often lost on me. Probably why I like Dickens.

For I would have you know this, my brothers, that while our fathers all lived under the cloud, all crossed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses by the cloud and by the sea, all ate the same supernatural food, and all drank the same supernatural drink (drinking from the supernatural Rock which accompanied them — and that Rock was Christ i.e. before Abraham was, I AM, He was saying I am that I AM and they were going to kill him for blasphemy) (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

Christ, prior to being Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua or whatever name you prefer, was the God of the Old Testament. One of the reasons he came, he said, was to reveal the Father.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So prior to Christ's stint here on Earth, he was with the Father... from the beginning... in the beginning was the Word. And the word was with God and the Word WAS GOD. Without him, nothing that was made, was made.
He was the one who formed man. He was the one who formed the Earth. He was the one who made the heavens, the angels. He was with God, the Father. And He was the Logos... the word, who trusted the Father, so implicitly, he did not count it as loss to give up eternity and become a man, who dies...
You think a created being could stand in as a sacrifice for every sin ever committed? A creation worth more than the sum total of all mankind? He divested himself, into a sperm, became a human, did what Adam failed to do and went back to the glory he had before he came.

But, I’m still not certain if I’ve addressed your concern, as the whole God speaking to himself, sending himself, anointing himself, and giving himself commands and instructions on how to do things... I don't know what that's about. I didn’t say that at all. You have said it twice and I’m yet to figure out what that has to do with anything I have said.

Soj

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 134 by Sojournerofthearth]

I thought I did. I guess I got too bogged down in technicality and loquacity. I’m afraid the art of brevity is often lost on me. Probably why I like Dick[ens.

Thanks for your honesty.

Brevity has become my forte, especially since this body fails to do what was once so easy.

Change can be quite a challenge, but with God all things are possible.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 119 by onewithhim]

[Replying to post 119 by onewithhim]

[Replying to post 113 by Sojournerofthearth]
I asked you to respond specifically to what I posted about God speaking to himself, sending himself, anointing himself, and giving himself commands and instructions on how to do things. Will you do so?

I thought I did. I guess I got too bogged down in technicality and loquacity. I’m afraid the art of brevity is often lost on me. Probably why I like Dickens.

For I would have you know this, my brothers, that while our fathers all lived under the cloud, all crossed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses by the cloud and by the sea, all ate the same supernatural food, and all drank the same supernatural drink (drinking from the supernatural Rock which accompanied them — and that Rock was Christ i.e. before Abraham was, I AM, He was saying I am that I AM and they were going to kill him for blasphemy) (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

Christ, prior to being Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua or whatever name you prefer, was the God of the Old Testament. One of the reasons he came, he said, was to reveal the Father.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So prior to Christ's stint here on Earth, he was with the Father... from the beginning... in the beginning was the Word. And the word was with God and the Word WAS GOD. Without him, nothing that was made, was made.
He was the one who formed man. He was the one who formed the Earth. He was the one who made the heavens, the angels. He was with God, the Father. And He was the Logos... the word, who trusted the Father, so implicitly, he did not count it as loss to give up eternity and become a man, who dies...
You think a created being could stand in as a sacrifice for every sin ever committed? A creation worth more than the sum total of all mankind? He divested himself, into a sperm, became a human, did what Adam failed to do and went back to the glory he had before he came.

But, I’m still not certain if I’ve addressed your concern, as the whole God speaking to himself, sending himself, anointing himself, and giving himself commands and instructions on how to do things... I don't know what that's about. I didn’t say that at all. You have said it twice and I’m yet to figure out what that has to do with anything I have said.

Soj

No, you did not address my concern. I don't think it is too difficult to do. Please answer my post # 110. You REPLIED to that post, and number 119, but you didn't answer my request to explain what I asked you to explain.

[Red Wolf]

[/quote]

.so what do you make of Paul explainjng that the law has been abolished?[/quote]

In my reading of the gospels it appears that Jesus supported the Law. Why would we think Paul had the power to abolish the Law.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 126 by Checkpoint]

The question I have with that is, do we follow Paul or Jesus? eg, Did Jesus ever say they would end? Or only Paul, who claimed he only prophecies in part?

Do you not believe Jesus chose Paul as an Apostle?

Yes, I believe that he was chosen. I don't believe he ever spoke against what Jesus said or said Jesus changed his message. Others read him that way. But, Peter warns us against that thing. 2nd Peter 3:14-18.

.so what do you make of Paul explainjng that the law has been abolished?

He never did. Even if I thought he did, he did not have God's or Christ's authority. If you can't harmonize Paul with Jesus(who upheld the law), then Paul must go. I think Paul harmonizes well when read correctly. He's tricky to understand as Peter explained. So, if you think he speaks against God's law, by God's instruction in Dueteronomy 13, he is false and should be rejected. I don't believe he is. Itching ears like to hear certain things and many are deceived by hearing what they like.

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to post 110 by onewithhim]

Good Evening,

I hope this won't be too confusing to you, but I addressed each paragraph with a reply. My Replies are in Italics.

YHVH and Christ are not the same Person. (Yes, I believe they are. I’ve given you several verses already that state why I believe the Bible teaches that He is.) You say YHVH BECAME Christ. How could He when He speaks to Christ in the O.T. (YHVH and the Father are not the same Being, but they both are God, as in I am Smith and my son is Smith, we’re both Smith but we are not the same person.) and Christ speaks to HIM in the N.T.? If you say God is talking to Himself, I'm sorry, but that makes no sense and abates all reason. Look at these few scriptures and tell me if you think YHVH is anointing, sending and talking to Himself. (Of course, I do not think that.)

(1) "The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.' The rod of thy strength doth Jehovah send from Zion, rule in the midst of thine enemies." (Psalm 110: 1,2, Young's Literal Translation)
(No, it is the Father speaking to the Word. They both have existed for eternity… but one of them gave it up to become the second Adam… trusted entirely in the Father Joh_17:5 …glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. They are both Elohim, of the God Family. One in purpose, one in mind and heart, but not one in the same. The name YHVH can apply to them both as the name simply means the Eternal, of which they both laid claim to prior to the Logos becoming a man, but most of the time, YHVH is referring to the Word.)

(2) "The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me, because Jehovah did anoint me to proclaim tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind the broken of heart, to proclaim to captives liberty , and to bound ones an opening of bands. To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah, and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all mourners." (Isaiah 61:1,2, Young's.) Jesus applied both scriptures above to himself as the anointed one, the Messiah, who Jehovah was anointing and sending to proclaim good news, one at Matthew 22:43-45; the other at Luke 4:17-21. It's very clear to me that Jehovah is not Jesus the Messiah whom He gave instructions to and told him what to say. (John 5:19, 30)

(He did. I gave you numerous verses before where God is spoken of in the Old Testament as plural. That is because they were both there… with a plan to save mankind from itself. It is the entire point of the Bible, that mankind was made in the image of God, not after the animal kind, not after the primate kind, but after the GOD-kind. God is building a family and part of the plan was that someone would have to pay the penalty that mankind had sentenced on them. The very one who made them from the dirt, and breathed life into them, divested himself of all that he was and became a man to raise man from the dirt, to become the very sons of God. Treat one another with the same spirit as you experience in Christ Jesus. Though he was divine by nature, he did not set store upon equality with God but emptied himself by taking the nature of a servant; born in human guise and appearing in human form, he humbly stooped in his obedience even to die, and to die upon the cross. Therefore God raised him high and conferred on him a Name above all names, so that before the Name of Jesus every knee should bend in heaven, on earth, and underneath the earth, and every tongue confess that 'Jesus Christ is Lord,' to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11))

(3) "Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said, 'Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so that your Son may glorify you, just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." (John 17:1-3, NWT)

(In Joh_5:22-23 it says that God has committed all judgement to Christ. Now notice Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-4. "It shall come to pass... that the mountain [Kingdom] of the Lord's [Yhvh's] house shall be established in the top of the mountains [kingdoms]" —ruling the world. "And he [Yhvh—Christ] shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people," and then they shall have PEACE.)

Explain to me how those verses show God anointing, sending, instructing, and talking to Himself.
(You said that, not me.)

Soj

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 126 by Checkpoint]

The question I have with that is, do we follow Paul or Jesus? eg, Did Jesus ever say they would end? Or only Paul, who claimed he only prophecies in part?

Jesus didn't mention the gifts of the Spirit because they hadn't been given to anyone yet. It was after Jesus ascended to heaven, on the day of Pentecost.

The author of 1 Samuel would disagree with you:

• 10:9 When he turned his back to leave Samuel, God gave him another heart. And all these signs came to pass that day. 10 When they came to Gibeah, behold, a group of prophets met him, and the Spirit of God rushed upon him, and he prophesied among them.

God himself gave the gift of his spirit long before the day of Pentecost. Just as you said, we need to be familiar with all scripture.


Tcg