None good but God

[Wootah]

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Question: If there are none good but God how can a not good being pay for my sins?

[Wootah]

Consider verse 21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

He doesn't say follow God. Following a man or a demon or an angel and not God is actual idolatry.

So whilst the conclusion is valid that if Jesus is not God then following him is idolatry - I wouldn't be casting that stone were I a JW.

Idolatry is worshipping not following. Millions follow a particular leader; there are followers of Calvin who are followers in the sense that they follow what he has taught. When Christ invited his disciples to "follow him" he was not displacing the Father: he never did. When he said "I am the way" it meant that what he preached was the correct way to God.

On a lighter note since we are approaching White Christmas season, Bing Crosby and Danny Kaye sing: "We'll follow the old man...." I'm sure they didn't literally see him as God.

That's not my understanding. Idolatry is loving/following something more than God. Money, career, family, self, entertainment, are all idolatry. If Jesus is not God then I am certainly committing idolatry.

[Wootah]

Romans 3:9-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
No One Is Righteous
9 What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.�
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.�
“The venom of asps is under their lips.�
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.�
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.�
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.�

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being[c] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Here seems to be another Bible passage that supports that no one is righteous.

If Jesus is not righteous then how can he do anything to help our standing with God? Are both Jesus and Paul lying (and therefore definitely sinners)?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Eloi]

First I think you meant Ex 23:20.

Second, your counter-argument is simplistic, 'Aha, you found an example of someone following something'. Never did I mean that following someone or something in an ordinary sense was idol worship. But if because of that angel they decided to follow that angel instead of God it would be idol worship.

[Eloi]

Wootah, Jesus was an exceptional man in too many ways ... That doesn't make him God. God is unique, and is the Father of Jesus ... he taught that, why you don't want to believe on Jesus' own words?

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’�

[Tcg]

Wootah, Jesus was an exceptional man in too many ways ...

Jesus was too exceptional to be simply a man. Some try to describe him as some unique being that is midway between God and man. There is of course no Biblical support for such a being.

Jesus is either an ordinary man or God in the form of a man. There are no other choices.


Tcg

[tam]

Peace to you!

Wootah, Jesus was an exceptional man in too many ways ...

Jesus was too exceptional to be simply a man. Some try to describe him as some unique being that is midway between God and man. There is of course no Biblical support for such a being.

Jesus is either an ordinary man or God in the form of a man. There are no other choices.


Tcg

Or... He could be just who He said He was: the Son of God.

[Eloi]

Who Jesus was is not a modern question.

Matt. 16:13 Now when he had come into the parts of Caes·a·reʹa Phi·lipʹpi, Jesus went asking his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?� 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·liʹjah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.� 15 He said to them: “YOU, though, who do YOU say I am?� 16 In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.� 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.

... 21:10 Now when he entered into Jerusalem, the whole city was set in commotion, saying: “Who is this?� 11 The crowds kept telling: “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazʹa·reth of Galʹi·lee!� (...) 23 Now after he went into the temple, the chief priests and the older men of the people came up to him while he was teaching and said: “By what authority do you do these things? And who gave you this authority?� 24 In reply Jesus said to them: “I, also, will ask YOU one thing. If YOU tell it to me, I also will tell YOU by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism by John, from what source was it? From heaven or from men?� ...

Mark 4:39 With that he roused himself and rebuked the wind and said to the sea: “Hush! Be quiet!� And the wind abated, and a great calm set in. 40 So he said to them: “Why are YOU fainthearted? Do YOU not yet have any faith?� 41 But they felt an unusual fear, and they would say to one another: “Who really is this, because even the wind and the sea obey him?�

I could post a lot of passages that show how people reacted to the sole presence of Jesus and his personality and acts. This is John's conclusion:

John 20:30 To be sure, Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

Jesus was the Son of God, the Moses-like prophet, the Lord and Teacher, etc ... No man can be defined in only one word; I could be described as a Jehovah's witness, a father, a son, a friend, a brother, a Cuban, an american, a hispanic, a Christian, etc ...

[Tcg]

Peace to you!

Wootah, Jesus was an exceptional man in too many ways ...

Jesus was too exceptional to be simply a man. Some try to describe him as some unique being that is midway between God and man. There is of course no Biblical support for such a being.

Jesus is either an ordinary man or God in the form of a man. There are no other choices.


Tcg

Or... He could be just who He said He was: the Son of God.

Sure, I have a son and he is a man as I am. The son of god would be a god, as god is. Unless you are suggesting that god doesn't produce after its own kind.

Perhaps a chicken once gave birth to a cow. Perhaps a mouse once gave birth to a lion. Perhaps a bear once gave birth to a hamster.

All of these are as likely as a god giving birth to a man.


Tcg

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you!

Wootah, Jesus was an exceptional man in too many ways ...

Jesus was too exceptional to be simply a man. Some try to describe him as some unique being that is midway between God and man. There is of course no Biblical support for such a being.

Jesus is either an ordinary man or God in the form of a man. There are no other choices.


Tcg

Or... He could be just who He said He was: the Son of God.

Sure, I have a son and he is a man as I am. The son of god would be a god, as god is.

Sure.

But this is not what Wootah and other trinitarians are suggesting though. I have asked before and been told no, they are not using the word 'god' as a kind (as a divine being; or an immortal being; or a Spirit being).

The claim is that Christ IS God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel; God Most High). That is something Christ never once claimed (and in fact He claimed the opposite: that God is His Father).



Peace again to you!

[Tcg]

But this is not what Wootah and other trinitarians are suggesting though.

I have not addressed what Wootah or other trinitarians have suggested. I addressed your suggestion that a son of god could be something less than a god. Please explain how this is possible.


Tcg