None good but God

[Wootah]

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Question: If there are none good but God how can a not good being pay for my sins?

[Eloi]

Only for idolaters a lamb can be God.

Nobody in heavens thinks the Lamb of God is God. That only happened with the israelites when Moses went up the mountain ... and you know what happened there.

[Tcg]

Only for idolaters a lamb can be God.

How is viewing Jesus as both a symbolic lamb and God idolatry?

Nobody in heavens thinks the Lamb of God is God. That only happened with the israelites when Moses went up the mountain ... and you know what happened there.

How can one know what those in "heavens" think about God?


Tcg

[Eloi]

[Replying to Tcg]

Tcg:

How is viewing Jesus as both a symbolic lamb and God idolatry?

When someone knows Jesus is the Lamb of God and thinks he is God at the same time.

Exo. 32:1 Meanwhile the people got to see that Moses was taking a long time about coming down from the mountain. So the people congregated themselves about Aaron and said to him: “Get up, make for us a god who will go ahead of us, because as regards this Moses, the man who led us up out of the land of Egypt, we certainly do not know what has happened to him.� 2 At this Aaron said to them: “Tear off the gold earrings that are in the ears of YOUR wives, of YOUR sons and of YOUR daughters and bring them to me.� 3 And all the people began tearing off the gold earrings that were in their ears and bringing them to Aaron. 4 Then he took [the gold] from their hands, and he formed it with a graving tool and proceeded to make it into a molten statue of a calf. And they began to say: “This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt.�

Tcg:

How can one know what those in "heavens" think about God?

Reading the Bible:

Rev. 5:6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, and the eyes mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent out into the whole earth. 7 At once he came forward and took it out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.�
11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.�
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.� 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!� and the elders fell down and worshipped.

[PinSeeker]

Peace again to you!

[Replying to post 93 by Wootah]

He clearly differentiated between Himself and God

No He didn't. He said nothing about Himself -- explicitly. Implicitly, He said, "Yes, I am good -- because I, along with the Father, am God. You just don't know what you're really saying/asking." Much like He said on the cross, "Forgive them, Father, because they know not what they do." Except it was more than that; He was pushing the young man to fully realize the import of what he was saying/asking. Whether he did come to realize that or not we know not.

But this is not what Christ said. What you have added here are your own words...

Tam, with all due respect, you're either not understanding or merely refusing to acknowledge the real message Christ is conveying to the young man. We do the same thing quite often -- we say more than we're actually saying in real words... the real import is much larger than what is actually being said. Language -- Hebrew, Greek, or any other tongue -- is not wooden, as some would have it in certain cases, either because they just don't understand or refuse to acknowledge because it doesn't fit the box they want to keep it in. Such is the case here. And of that dichotomy, the latter rather than the former seems to be the case.

Christ is not claiming to be God (the Most Holy One of Israel) in this verse or in any other verse.

Implicitly, He absolutely is.

Grace and peace to you, Tam.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace again to you!

[Replying to post 93 by Wootah]

He clearly differentiated between Himself and God

No He didn't. He said nothing about Himself -- explicitly. Implicitly, He said, "Yes, I am good -- because I, along with the Father, am God. You just don't know what you're really saying/asking." Much like He said on the cross, "Forgive them, Father, because they know not what they do." Except it was more than that; He was pushing the young man to fully realize the import of what he was saying/asking. Whether he did come to realize that or not we know not.

But this is not what Christ said. What you have added here are your own words...

Tam, with all due respect, you're either not understanding or merely refusing to acknowledge the real message Christ is conveying to the young man.

OR... it isn't the real message, for all the reasons previously stated. Including the fact that Christ did differentiate between Himself and God on numerous occasions.


You seem to be pretty quick to tell someone that they do not understand or that they are refusing to understand what you are claiming to be true... but you have not addressed the argument.

Christ is not claiming to be God (the Most Holy One of Israel) in this verse or in any other verse.

Implicitly, He absolutely is.

You have made it clear that this is your opinion, your belief, but that is about it.

Grace and peace to you, Tam.

And to you as well, Pinseeker.

[tam]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 98 by Wootah]

Where can I read about this sinful flesh teaching online? Which group teaches that? It sounds gnostic in genesis.

I don't understand, Wootah. What is wrong with reading about it in the verses I shared viewtopic.php?p=988316#988316 and that brian added to in the following post? This may be unfamiliar to you, but I did not make those verse up.

As for the Teacher, Christ Jaheshua is the Teacher we should be listening to, to know the truth of this or any other matter. Were you just hoping to be able to speak with others who may understand this as well, from Him?


It is also not the "gnostic" teaching, if I am correctly understanding what the 'gnostic' teaching is. Didn't they teach that because the flesh is evil, Christ never actually came as a man, as flesh and blood? That He only came in the illusion of flesh and blood? *shrugs* This is an erroneous teaching. What I shared has nothing to do with that.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Wootah]

Only for idolaters a lamb can be God.

How is viewing Jesus as both a symbolic lamb and God idolatry?

Nobody in heavens thinks the Lamb of God is God. That only happened with the israelites when Moses went up the mountain ... and you know what happened there.

How can one know what those in "heavens" think about God?


Tcg

Also if Jesus is not God - the NT is idolatory.

Consider verse 21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

He doesn't say follow God. Following a man or a demon or an angel and not God is actual idolatry.

So whilst the conclusion is valid that if Jesus is not God then following him is idolatry - I wouldn't be casting that stone were I a JW.

[marco]

Consider verse 21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

He doesn't say follow God. Following a man or a demon or an angel and not God is actual idolatry.

So whilst the conclusion is valid that if Jesus is not God then following him is idolatry - I wouldn't be casting that stone were I a JW.

Idolatry is worshipping not following. Millions follow a particular leader; there are followers of Calvin who are followers in the sense that they follow what he has taught. When Christ invited his disciples to "follow him" he was not displacing the Father: he never did. When he said "I am the way" it meant that what he preached was the correct way to God.

On a lighter note since we are approaching White Christmas season, Bing Crosby and Danny Kaye sing: "We'll follow the old man...." I'm sure they didn't literally see him as God.

[Tcg]

Consider verse 21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

He doesn't say follow God. Following a man or a demon or an angel and not God is actual idolatry.

So whilst the conclusion is valid that if Jesus is not God then following him is idolatry - I wouldn't be casting that stone were I a JW.

Idolatry is worshipping not following. Millions follow a particular leader; there are followers of Calvin who are followers in the sense that they follow what he has taught. When Christ invited his disciples to "follow him" he was not displacing the Father: he never did. When he said "I am the way" it meant that what he preached was the correct way to God.

On a lighter note since we are approaching White Christmas season, Bing Crosby and Danny Kaye sing: "We'll follow the old man...." I'm sure they didn't literally see him as God.

I'm not aware of the need to give away all that one owns to follow the teachings of Calvin. Following Jesus required a much greater commitment and promised a much greater reward. Do mere men have the power to grant eternal life and heavenly treasures?

The old man might have ensured success for his boys during war, but he wasn't bold enough to promise heaven for their retirement nor would any expect it. Jesus' promise was fundamentally different and the expectation was that the eternal rewards would far exceed the brief sacrifice.


Tcg

[Eloi]

[Replying to Wootah]
Wootah said:

He doesn't say follow God. Following a man or a demon or an angel and not God is actual idolatry.

That is false:

Exo. 5:20 “Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. 21 Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon YOUR transgression; because my name is within him. 22 However, if you strictly obey his voice and really do all that I shall speak, then I shall certainly be hostile to your enemies and harass those who harass you. 23 For my angel will go ahead of you (...)

Wootah said:

So whilst the conclusion is valid that if Jesus is not God then following him is idolatry - I wouldn't be casting that stone were I a JW.

That is false.

Deut. 18:15 A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you—to him YOU people should listen—

Acts 7:37 “This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel: ‘God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me.’ 38 This is the one who came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Siʹnai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give us. 39 Our forefathers refused to obey him, but they pushed him aside and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, 40 saying to Aaron: ‘Make gods for us to go ahead of us. For we do not know what has happened to this Moses, who led us out of the land of Egypt.’

Acts 3:22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And all the prophets from Samuel and those who followed him, as many as have spoken, have also plainly declared these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your forefathers, saying to Abraham: ‘And by means of your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.’ 26 God, after raising up his Servant, sent him to you first to bless you by turning each one of you away from your wicked deeds.�
...

Jesus was that prophet Moses-like and follow him and obeying him is not idolatry at all, that is ridiculous. Idolatry is comparing God with any form or figure to give Him any of the characteristics of this figure, like saying God must be good as a destined to be sacrificed LAMB.