Clear declaration of Jesus as God

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:19 pm

Titus 2:11-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Line 13. Anyone want to explain this away?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:21 pm

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

2 PETER 1:1 and ...TITUS 2:13

RightReason wrote: 2 Peter 1:1 . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ ... St. Paul uses the same phrase in Titus 2:13 as well.

While some bible translations render the verses in a way that suggests they refer to one individual, the CATHOLIC bibles below clarify matters by rendering the verses as follows...

Code: Select all

NEW AMERICAN BIBLE &#40;REVISED&#41;
..through knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. - 2 Peter 1&#58;1

DOUAY-RHEIMS 
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ  -Titus 2&#58;13

The original Greek of 2 Peter 1:1

Î´Î¹ÎºÎ±Î¹Î¿Ïƒá½»Î½á¿ƒ Ï„Î¿á¿¦ Î¸ÎµÎ¿á¿¦ á¼¡Î¼á¿¶Î½ ÎºÎ±á½¶ ÏƒÏ‰Ï„á¿†Ï�Î¿Ï‚ á¼¸Î·ÏƒÎ¿á¿¦ Î§Ï�Î¹ÏƒÏ„Î¿á¿¦

literally reads ...

... of the GOD (of us) and of Saviour Jesus Christ

..leading some to conclude that the writer is designating Jesus as God but Moulton's Grammar of New Testament Greek explains that where there are several nouns connected by "kai" (and) "The art[icle] may be carried over from the first noun to the other(s)" - p. 181, Vol. 3, 1963. Indeed this is the case in many similar constructions. We do a similar thing in English when we refer to "King and country"; it is understood, even without saying King and the country that the country is not the king.

CONCLUSION It is grammatically dubious to say the least to insist that Peter and Paul (the writer of Titus) were suggesting Jesus was God in the above passages. Two indi visuals are spoken of only one of which is being revered to as God.

Further Reading
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... -rule.html

Sharps Rule
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... ts-on.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -rule.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -some.html

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GOD, JESUS and ...THE TRINITY

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:19 am

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

So do you expect the Father to appear in the second coming?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:07 am

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

So do you expect the Father to appear in the second coming?

Are you suggesting there is a scripture in the bible that says Father will appear in the second coming? Titus says "the glory of our great God" can be expected to be made manifest, but not that humans will literally see the person of God.

Post by **Tcg** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:40 am

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

So do you expect the Father to appear in the second coming?
Are you suggesting there is a scripture in the bible that says Father will appear in the second coming? Titus says "the glory of our great God" can be expected to be made manifest, but not that humans will literally see the person of God.

In your opinion then, what do you expect humans to see?

How does seeing the "the glory of our great God" differ from seeing "the person of God?"

Tcg

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:01 pm

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm trying to see how your interpretation would work.

If the 'and' separates God and Jesus then: Do JW think God the Father will appear. If not then who is appearing?

Being as neutral as possible: the verse is saying the appearance of the glory of God, not the appearance of God. Can we separate the glory of God from God?

Post by **Tcg** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:00 pm

Wootah wrote:
Can we separate the glory of God from God?

From a trinitarian view, can one separate the Father from the Son or the Son from the Spirit, or the Spirit from the Father? If God is one and yet three, how can this type of God appear without the other two?

From this point of view, is it not meaningless to question which of the three will appear, or whose glory will appear, if they are one?

Can God divide itself into separate parts?

Tcg

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:10 pm

[Replying to Tcg]

Matt. 16:27â€¯For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:27 pm

What's interesting here is that what is "appearing" here -- or what will be appearing, according to Paul, is the glory of both God and Jesus. So in a sense, our JW friends are right that God and Jesus are being referred to separately, but this does nothing to say that God is God and Jesus is not. The same glory is attributed to them both. There are several things to understand here:

* The glory is what is appearing
* The glory (singular) belongs to both God and Jesus, who are distinct persons
* Both God and Jesus possess the same glory -- we see this in Revelation 5:13, where both God and Jesus (the Lamb) are attributed the same "blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

That should be more than enough to merely realize that God and Jesus, though two distinct persons -- one invisible (God) and one visible (Jesus) -- but both members of the Godhead and therefore God. But there is more to it even than that:

The Shekinah Glory of God is the visible manifestation of God on earth, whose presence is portrayed through natural occurrences. In the Old Testament, God's presence was as a pillar of cloud (by day) and a pillar of fire (by night) and water, and bread (manna) and meat (Exodus 13:17-22, 15:22-27, 16:1-21). God guided, protected, and nourished His people in all these very tangible ways. In the New Testament, God's presence is as the man Jesus Christ. As I said in one of the other current threads, Jesus Himself, in John 6-8, proclaims Himself as all of this -- "I am the way, the truth and the life" (guidance, protection, nourishment), and "I am the bread that came down from heaven" (manna), and "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink" (living water), and "I am the Light of the world" (pillar of cloud/fire).

There really is no debate to be had. It's really just a matter of our acceptance or lack thereof. And I... am... in full acceptance.

See what I did there? You guys thought I was going to say, "I am Iron Man" and snap my fingers, didn't you?

Grace and peace to you all.

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:43 pm

[Replying to PinSeeker]
PinSeeker said:

we see this in Revelation 5:13, where both God and Jesus (the Lamb) are attributed the same "blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

WRONG:

Rev. 4:9â€¯And whenever the living creatures offer glory and honor and thanksgiving to the one seated upon the throne, the one that lives forever and ever, 10â€¯the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11â€¯â€œYou are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.â€�

Rev. 5:9â€¯And they sing a new song, saying: â€œYou are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10â€¯and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.â€�
11â€¯And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12â€¯saying with a loud voice: â€œThe Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.â€�

Jesus receives glory ... but the reason he receives it is a very diferent reason that the reason why the ONE in the throne receives glory. The reasons say if both are the same glories or not.

As I said before:

Matt. 16:27â€¯For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior.

The real glory Jesus has, he received from the Father ... Jesus said:

John 5:41â€¯I do not accept glory from men
... 7:18â€¯He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but he that seeks the glory of him that sent him, this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.
... 8:50â€¯But I am not seeking glory for myself; there is One that is seeking and judging.

Maybe it must be clarify what do you think is "glory", so you will be clear what is the diference of that glory of the Father and the one that Jesus receives.

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