Clear declaration of Jesus as God

[Wootah]

Titus 2:11-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Line 13. Anyone want to explain this away?

[Tcg]

Again, take it easy ... It is you who is using ad-hominen with me ... I didn't make any judgement of anyone; I just said what the Bible says about some people:

Unlike you, I haven't questioned your character in any way. You, on the other hand, question the character of those who disagree with you. That is the very definition of an ad hominem argument.

The fact that you pretend the Bible supports your ad hominem doesn't change that fact that you use this logically fallacious argument in an invalid attempt to support your view.


Tcg

[Eloi]

I must do other things now. Have a good day.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 42 by Eloi]

Trying to reason with arrogance is self-defeating. Imagine---I wrote something that was meant to erase a person's anxiety about possible torturing going on in an endless fire, and an individual told me he didn't care for my posts ("I didn't address your posts," or some such words) and what I wrote was completely irrelevant. Kind of cold and condescending I would say.

You would be right if you just dropped it with some people here who aren't looking for an amiable discussion.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

If there were a clear declaration of Jesus as God, this thread would not be necessary. But, here it is.


Tcg

Jesus did not reveal himself clearly and he says as much in the New Testament. People simply hate the idea of being saved by grace, which means by God alone, because it means that they cannot save themselves.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

If there were a clear declaration of Jesus as God, this thread would not be necessary. But, here it is.


Tcg

Jesus did not reveal himself clearly and he says as much in the New Testament.

I thought your argument was that Titus 2:11-14 was a clear declaration of Jesus as God? Have I misunderstood your point?

People simply hate the idea of being saved by grace, which means by God alone, because it means that they cannot save themselves.

I must admit I was surprised when in a current thread discussing this, a great number of posters rejected the idea of belief being the means of attaining eternal life and argued that keeping the commandments was the means. I've always thought the gospel message was that salvation is a gift of God, not of works.


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to post 45 by Tcg]

Tcg: I must admit I was surprised when in a current thread discussing this, a great number of posters rejected the idea of belief being the means of attaining eternal life and argued that keeping the commandments was the means. I've always thought the gospel message was that salvation is a gift of God, not of works.

William: My own understanding is that it can be one or the other because The Secret is in knowing one is actually an Eternal Entity and has always been so.
So The Trick was to create a time and space whereby one could deceive an Eternal Entity into not knowing that is what it is, and the results are hilarious....and hellarious...

The Next Exciting experience is to take one's beliefs formulated in our present reality experience and merge these with the properties of the next, thus very quickly creating one's own personal universe, to experience those mirrored attitudes one has nurtured...more hilarity...I am liking where this is going...

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 45 by Tcg]

That's an unfortunate use of clear in a thread on the clarity a verse provides.

But even I can see that the verse talks about Jesus as the glory of God. How do we separate God and his glory I don't know.

But to your wider point, if Jesus

[polonius]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

2 PETER 1:1 and ...TITUS 2:13

2 Peter 1:1 . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ ... St. Paul uses the same phrase in Titus 2:13 as well.

While some bible translations render the verses in a way that suggests they refer to one individual, the CATHOLIC bibles below clarify matters by rendering the verses as follows...

Code: Select all

NEW AMERICAN BIBLE (REVISED)
..through knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. - 2 Peter 1:1

DOUAY-RHEIMS 
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ  -Titus 2:13

The original Greek of 2 Peter 1:1

δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆ�ος Ἰησοῦ Χ�ιστοῦ

literally reads ...

... of the GOD (of us) and of Saviour Jesus Christ

..leading some to conclude that the writer is designating Jesus as God but Moulton's Grammar of New Testament Greek explains that where there are several nouns connected by "kai" (and) "The art[icle] may be carried over from the first noun to the other(s)" - p. 181, Vol. 3, 1963. Indeed this is the case in many similar constructions. We do a similar thing in English when we refer to "King and country"; it is understood, even without saying King and the country that the country is not the king.

CONCLUSION It is grammatically dubious to say the least to insist that Peter and Paul (the writer of Titus) were suggesting Jesus was God in the above passages. Two indi visuals are spoken of only one of which is being revered to as God.

Further Reading
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... -rule.html

Sharps Rule
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... ts-on.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -rule.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -some.html

Go to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE TRINITY

RESPONSE: It's very doubtful that Peter wrote Peter and Paul wrote Titus, and Timothy I and II

Look it up.

Incidentally the gospel of Matthew apparently was not written by the Apostle Matthew. (See The introduction to Matthew, New American Bible.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

Others have already given good explanations of verse 13. But a "clear declaration of Jesus as God" would be something like "Jesus is God", or Jesus saying of himself ""I am God". Neither such line occurs in the New Testament. Only "John's" Jesus comes close. But they are contradicted in John 17.3.

A "clear indication that Jesus is God" would be plainly spoken, direct, and uncontradicted by other verses.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 48 by Elijah John]


CLEAR CHALLENGES TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961.
………………………………..

Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
........................................................

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

………………………………....

Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly, visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(( Notice how the 'Christian' God is described by Christendom itself in the beginning paragraphs of this study ['three']! Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.))
……………………………….............

(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
……………………………….................

Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
………………………………....................

(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
………………………………...................

(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

……………………………….................

(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!
………………………………...............

Challenge from creation itself:
Ro. 1:20, NASB - "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

(I) Please show where in nature mankind would clearly see the three-in-oneness (or just threeness) of God from the beginning. (This would have to be something as clear and important as the single sun in the sky which has been recognized to support life from the beginning. Or the man made in God's image, was made with a single personality, a single body, a single head, a single heart.)

I believe any objective observer would admit that the answers to these simple scriptural challenges (A-H above) should be abundantly, clearly, indisputably available if the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’) worshipers are correct.

To look for rare instances of unclear, disputed scriptures which have to be interpreted to fit a trinitarian concept (developed after the death of the last Apostle and the completion of Scripture) and convince yourself that they are "proofs" is a tragic error.

God has always existed as God and, therefore, His people should have always known who He was and worshiped him in truth.

To believe that God withheld this information from his people (or made it something to be interpreted from unclear, incomplete references) from the beginning (and throughout all Scriptures) is a tragic error.

If any others (other than the Father, YHWH) are truly God with him, It would be repeatedly, clearly emphasized throughout the Bible (as Jehovah, the Father, is).