Without God life has no purpose

[2Dbunk]

Menotu wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by man, in 'Right or Wrong' forum]

Without God Life Has No Purpose

That's a horrible way of thinking to me. Why do we need to rely on something else to have purpose? Sounds like if you think this you're setting yourself up for failure. Unless you believe in this concept. Even still, I think deep down, you still are setting yourself up for failure as you can't compare to perfection, even when you can't provide what perfection is.

First (pardon me if it has been mentioned before), but doesn't this belong under 'Philosophy?'

So I answer this premise philosophically, and in a new thread under 'Philosophy,' if I may be permitted. Thjs is man's premise and he deserves credit for the original post).

WE LIVE -- that is an awesome plus, to say the least. It's the best show between Mercury and Pluto, par none -- AND BEYOND to as far as we can reconnoiter, and we can reconnoiter pretty far.

Let's see: we haven't found any angels sitting on clouds when we got that high with aeronautics; we went to the Moon but did not find heaven, but instead a crater pocked desert; need I go on? Maybe that hole ("no purpose") is really curiosity -- we can't seem to quench that desire to know! If there is a hole in non-theist's makeup, it has been put there by this mysterious 'God,' the Master of the Gaps.

So far, I've spoken for life's plethora of partying, and don't say that it isn't a party but some melancholy trek from cradle to grave, always worshipping that entity who died on the cross for us so that whoever believes of 'Him' will live in eternal melancholy. BUT THERE'S MORE (and theists talk of 'no purpose' other than living for "God!"):

EXISTENCE ITSELF -- The Cosmos exist, like no pot-pourri that has ever existed -- NAY, think of an infinite kaleidoscope accompanied by the grandest orchestra one can imagine, and that might get you one-tenth of what I'm trying to describe (keep in mind that one-tenth of infinity is equal to infinity). Now, an individual's 'hole' that you talk of on this scale is infinitesimal -- compare that to the meaning of the Cosmos and what do you have?

I'm all ears.

[2ndRateMind]

Quite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.

Actually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.

Even if freedom did follow from that, it's a freedom to say we can do as we like, not that we should. The objective purpose you get with a single, absolutely perfect creator god is that you now know what you should do, which is praise and glorify that god. It sucks to be somebody else's ego trip...

God is perfect.

If god is perfect why would he be sorry he had made human beings on the earth? Perfect beings don't do things they're sorry for.
(Genesis 6:6 ICB]


If god is perfect why would he repent that He had made Saul king over Israel? Perfect beings don't do things they repent having done.
(1 Samuel 15:35 KJ21)


If god is perfect why would he deeply regret the disaster that he inflicted upon Jeremiah. Perfect beings don't do things they regret doing.
(Jeremiah 42:10 GNV)


If god is perfect why would he repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people. Perfect beings don't do things they repenteth of .
(Exodus 32:14 YLT)


As is patently obvious, God is far from perfect. AND what do we call all these things god was sorry for, repented having done, regretted doing, and repenteth of? MISTAKES! Not only is god not perfect but he makes mistakes, just like you and I.


.

The Bible presents a God that practices favoritism and cruelty. So much for love.

I wouldn't give too much credence to the Bible. Especially the OT. It was written a long time ago, and humanity has made scientific, social, philosophical and theological progress since. The gospels seem fairly reliable, though. For me, the main reason for the OT is simply because it places Jesus in the religion of His place and time, and allows us to appreciate the extent of the paradigm shift He wrought.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

So, one of the reasons I like to be a progressive liberal Christian is that I am allowed to come up with theories about stuff like this that make sense to me. Be warned, though, they may make no sense to you.

Heaven and Hell, then. My current thinking is that they are the same place: the presence of God. The difference being, what we each make of that. The good, of course, will love that presence, and find themselves vindicated, and find thus their Heaven. The evil will not be so happy. For the Hitlers, Stalins, Pol Pots and (I anticipate) Putins of the world do not like what is good, still less what is supremely good. For them, the presence of God will be Hell.

However, being a soft hearted sort of a 2ndRateMind, I hope that even these evil people will still have the chance to repent, atone, and eventually join the communion of the good. Their first step in the process of redemption, of course, is to recognise the truth about themselves. They may, for all eternity, be unable to bring themselves to do that. Their decision, their problem. Even if they can, they will still have a tough row to hoe. Repentance is not easy, nor atonement, and God, in my experience, is no sentimental pushover.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[AquinasForGod]

I agree with existentialists on the existential crysis. Simply put, if there is no God, then life is absolutely absurd. For, without God, it has no meaning, value, or purpose.

Yes, I know some will say they "feel" their life has a purpose because their purpose is to procreate or love, but that is meaningless. It is all absurd because they will be nothing forever, and when all is done, no one will remember anything. Your species will cease to exist, so your procreation was ultimatey absurd. Everything you did was ultimately absurd.

[2ndRateMind]

I agree with existentialists on the existential crysis. Simply put, if there is no God, then life is absolutely absurd. For, without God, it has no meaning, value, or purpose.

Yes, I know some will say they "feel" their life has a purpose because their purpose is to procreate or love, but that is meaningless. It is all absurd because they will be nothing forever, and when all is done, no one will remember anything. Your species will cease to exist, so your procreation was ultimatey absurd. Everything you did was ultimately absurd.

Even an atheist, for whom there is no God in this life, and then who (quite rationally) decides to dedicate it to the momentary pleasures of hedonism probably does not find his life absurd. And if he doesn't, who are the existentialists, or us, to decide that it is?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[AquinasForGod]

I agree with existentialists on the existential crysis. Simply put, if there is no God, then life is absolutely absurd. For, without God, it has no meaning, value, or purpose.

Yes, I know some will say they "feel" their life has a purpose because their purpose is to procreate or love, but that is meaningless. It is all absurd because they will be nothing forever, and when all is done, no one will remember anything. Your species will cease to exist, so your procreation was ultimatey absurd. Everything you did was ultimately absurd.

Even an atheist, for whom there is no God in this life, and then who decides to dedicate it to the momentary pleasures of hedonism probably does not find his life absurd. And if he doesn't, who are the existentialists, or us, to decide that it is?

Best wishes, 2RM.

That is a fair point. I think they are deluding themselves because who wants to accept their life is absurd?

[Miles]

Quite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.

Actually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.

Even if freedom did follow from that, it's a freedom to say we can do as we like, not that we should. The objective purpose you get with a single, absolutely perfect creator god is that you now know what you should do, which is praise and glorify that god. It sucks to be somebody else's ego trip...

God is perfect.

If god is perfect why would he be sorry he had made human beings on the earth? Perfect beings don't do things they're sorry for.
(Genesis 6:6 ICB]


If god is perfect why would he repent that He had made Saul king over Israel? Perfect beings don't do things they repent having done.
(1 Samuel 15:35 KJ21)


If god is perfect why would he deeply regret the disaster that he inflicted upon Jeremiah. Perfect beings don't do things they regret doing.
(Jeremiah 42:10 GNV)


If god is perfect why would he repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people. Perfect beings don't do things they repenteth of .
(Exodus 32:14 YLT)


As is patently obvious, God is far from perfect. AND what do we call all these things god was sorry for, repented having done, regretted doing, and repenteth of? MISTAKES! Not only is god not perfect but he makes mistakes, just like you and I.


.

The Bible presents a God that practices favoritism and cruelty. So much for love.

I wouldn't give too much credence to the Bible. Especially the OT. It was written a long time ago, and humanity has made scientific, social, philosophical and theological progress since.

Would they change what god is said to have done? Personally, I don't see how.

The gospels seem fairly reliable, though. For me, the main reason for the OT is simply because it places Jesus in the religion of His place and time, and allows us to appreciate the extent of the paradigm shift He wrought.

So, where do you get your information about god from?

And if the OT was credible enough for Jesus to be brought up on why isn't it credible enough for you? Does Jesus say to forget about the OT somewhere in his instructions to others? I ask because in Matthew 5:17-19 he says

17 “Don’t think that I have come to destroy the Law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have come not to destroy their teachings but to give full meaning to them. 18 I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done.

19 “A person should obey every command in the law, even one that does not seem important. Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches others not to obey it will be the least important in God’s kingdom. But whoever obeys the law and teaches others to obey it will be great in God’s kingdom.

(My emphasis,)

.

[2ndRateMind]

17 “Don’t think that I have come to destroy the Law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have come not to destroy their teachings but to give full meaning to them. 18 I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done.

19 “A person should obey every command in the law, even one that does not seem important. Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches others not to obey it will be the least important in God’s kingdom. But whoever obeys the law and teaches others to obey it will be great in God’s kingdom.

(My emphasis,)

I admit, I am intensely suspicious of anyone who claims to know God's thought processes, especially those such as that He repents, or is sorry, or regrets. It is inconsistent with an omniscient being.

Jesus, apart from being an itinerant rabbi, was also a canny political operator and a man of His time and place. He said some pretty radical things, but I think He realised He could only be so radical and expect to take His audience with Him. I think He'd have been crucufied a whole lot quicker had He shown anything but complete support for the prophets and the law, and that was all secondary to His main mission, anyway, which was to get His important messages across, and then sacrifice His life, innocent, to redeem mankind forever and provide us lesser mortals the consumate example of pure, perfect, divine love, for us all to emulate as best we can.

As for me, heretic that I am, I long ago gave up on trying to second guess God on whether I will be great or least in Heaven, if, indeed, I make it that far at all. But I am quite sure that I will be judged justly, as will we all. And I am content with that.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Purple Knight]

Heaven and Hell, then. My current thinking is that they are the same place: the presence of God. The difference being, what we each make of that.

This is pretty much what the Narnia books have about it, in the end. It's philosophically consistent and we know some people can indeed turn a good situation into a bad one and put themselves in Hell.

It's philosophically consistent, just be careful.

Be careful because you're believing in the supernatural and gods, so this angry fellow in the Bible still might be very very real as far as you're concerned. I would be careful about believing in him and thus giving him power, tricking yourself into thinking he's actually nice to justify it.

"Now, the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you often succeed."
- The Chronicles of Narnia, The Magician's Nephew

"Aslan and Tash are one."
Shift the Ape
- The Chronicles of Narnia, The Last Battle

[2ndRateMind]

Actually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.

So you assert. But an argument by assertion is no argument, at all.

That's because it wasn't meant to be an argument, but a statements of fact. Just a simple FYI.

So, justify those 'facts'. If you can. Don't expect me to believe them just because you say it is so.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Miles]

Actually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.

So you assert. But an argument by assertion is no argument, at all.

That's because it wasn't meant to be an argument, but a statements of fact. Just a simple FYI.

So, justify those 'facts'. If you can. Don't expect me to believe them just because you say it is so.

Not until you answer MY challenges.

You said:

Well, had you ever been in love, you would know the answer to that so what. As I clue, I can say it falls into two parts; what is good for each of us, and what is good for the world. The rest is better discovered than explained.

And I asked:

And what purpose does such good serve? Why not simply not create us in the first place and save the effort? God is also said to create evil.

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

What purpose do you think that serves?

Maybe nothing was missing. And He just decided to share that.

That what?

Quite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.

Our freedom comes from a love that has innocent people killed? How does that work?


If god is perfect why would he be sorry he had made human beings on the earth?

If god is perfect why would he repent that He had made Saul king over Israel?

If god is perfect why would he deeply regret the disaster that he inflicted upon Jeremiah.

If god is perfect why would he repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.

I wouldn't give too much credence to the Bible. Especially the OT. It was written a long time ago, and humanity has made scientific, social, philosophical and theological progress since.

Would they change what god is said to have done? Personally, I don't see how.

The gospels seem fairly reliable, though. For me, the main reason for the OT is simply because it places Jesus in the religion of His place and time, and allows us to appreciate the extent of the paradigm shift He wrought.

So, where do you get your information about god from?

And if the OT was credible enough for Jesus to be brought up on why isn't it credible enough for you? Does Jesus say to forget about the OT somewhere in his instructions to others? I ask because in Matthew 5:17-19 he says

(quote from Matthew follows)

.