Without God life has no purpose

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2Dbunk
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Without God life has no purpose

Post #1

Post by 2Dbunk »

Menotu wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by man, in 'Right or Wrong' forum]

Without God Life Has No Purpose

That's a horrible way of thinking to me. Why do we need to rely on something else to have purpose? Sounds like if you think this you're setting yourself up for failure. Unless you believe in this concept. Even still, I think deep down, you still are setting yourself up for failure as you can't compare to perfection, even when you can't provide what perfection is.

First (pardon me if it has been mentioned before), but doesn't this belong under 'Philosophy?'

So I answer this premise philosophically, and in a new thread under 'Philosophy,' if I may be permitted. Thjs is man's premise and he deserves credit for the original post).

WE LIVE -- that is an awesome plus, to say the least. It's the best show between Mercury and Pluto, par none -- AND BEYOND to as far as we can reconnoiter, and we can reconnoiter pretty far.

Let's see: we haven't found any angels sitting on clouds when we got that high with aeronautics; we went to the Moon but did not find heaven, but instead a crater pocked desert; need I go on? Maybe that hole ("no purpose") is really curiosity -- we can't seem to quench that desire to know! If there is a hole in non-theist's makeup, it has been put there by this mysterious 'God,' the Master of the Gaps.

So far, I've spoken for life's plethora of partying, and don't say that it isn't a party but some melancholy trek from cradle to grave, always worshipping that entity who died on the cross for us so that whoever believes of 'Him' will live in eternal melancholy. BUT THERE'S MORE (and theists talk of 'no purpose' other than living for "God!"):

EXISTENCE ITSELF -- The Cosmos exist, like no pot-pourri that has ever existed -- NAY, think of an infinite kaleidoscope accompanied by the grandest orchestra one can imagine, and that might get you one-tenth of what I'm trying to describe (keep in mind that one-tenth of infinity is equal to infinity). Now, an individual's 'hole' that you talk of on this scale is infinitesimal -- compare that to the meaning of the Cosmos and what do you have?

I'm all ears.

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Re: Without God life has no purpose

Post #21

Post by 2ndRateMind »

2Dbunk wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:03 pm
Menotu wrote:

Without God Life Has No Purpose
Just a semi relevant observation.

The ancients explained the world to themselves in terms of purpose. Atheists and scientists explain the universe in terms of causation.
The best way forward, to my mind, is to explain them to oneself it in terms of both. It is a richer path than either alone, and seems to offer a more complete picture, and deeper understanding.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Without God life has no purpose

Post #22

Post by Purple Knight »

The best form and validity I can give to "without God, life has no purpose" is that without God, life has no objective purpose, because we're not somebody's property, somebody's creation, created for that purpose, which is to serve, glorify, and praise God. It's the same as a hammer. We created it, so we decide that smashing somebody over the head with it is not its purpose, that the hammer is being used wrong. And yes it's a valid concept.

However, the vast majority of people don't want to be slaves, tools, things with an objective purpose, created for that purpose, by someone else. The vast majority of people want to be free.

Now a minority of people (myself actually included) would prefer to know what they are intended for and what they are not intended for so they don't risk going against it. Religious people sometimes say that we were created to love one another. I wouldn't mind being a tool, an automaton, for that. I do mind if I'm just here to be inferior so I can be somebody else's ego trip, but if I thought it was true I'd still do it. Even as bad as that is I still get something valuable out of it, which is that, armed with an objective purpose, I can now tell the fellow who bashes me over the head that he was wrong to do so, whereas without that, yeah, I kind of have to accept that I might not want him to, but he may well be in the right and I don't have an absolute case that he's not.

So that's the tradeoff. If most people think about what the tradeoff actually is, they will choose not to have purpose, because they prefer the freedom to generate purpose for themselves.
Tcg wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:09 am Belief in god/gods may indeed provide purpose for some. The function this belief provides is not reliant on the actual existence of god/gods. It is the belief itself that provides this function for some.
You can give yourself purpose, it's just not objective, like the purpose of a hammer, because a hammer was made for that purpose. Some people might like to be hammers, because then, they can tell other hammers with certainty, no, you don't bash me, you were not intended for that, you were intended to hammer nails, not bash other hammers. Only a minority of people would want this, however. The vast majority would not like to be tools or slaves. I'm just in the minority because I had an abusive family and went to really, really, really bad schools, so if I could choose to be a slave but have an objective, ironclad argument that humans are hammers and our purpose is to be kind to one another, I would. But 1) I think it's a fantasy and 2) even if it wasn't a fantasy maybe the creator does intend for humans to abuse one another, so I still don't have that perfect argument even if I say there's a god.

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Re: Without God life has no purpose

Post #23

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:53 pm ...Now a minority of people (myself actually included) would prefer to know what they are intended for and what they are not intended for so they don't risk going against it. Religious people sometimes say that we were created to love one another....
It's my belief God created us to love us, and spend, eventually, eternity with Him. Quite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Without God life has no purpose

Post #24

Post by Miles »

2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:01 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:53 pm ...Now a minority of people (myself actually included) would prefer to know what they are intended for and what they are not intended for so they don't risk going against it. Religious people sometimes say that we were created to love one another....
It's my belief God created us to love us,
Curious as to the goal of such a creation; millions of creatures loving one another. It's like a huge, So What?

and spend, eventually, eternity with Him.
What do you think was missing in god's existence that he needed companionship so badly that he was willing to create defective creatures knowing that only a few of them would make the grade, with all the others be thrown away (sent to hell). This being an outcome he is just fine with, and something he knew would be the outcome from the very beginning. (God being omniscient and all.)

Quite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.
Actually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.



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Re: Without God life has no purpose

Post #25

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:01 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:53 pm ...Now a minority of people (myself actually included) would prefer to know what they are intended for and what they are not intended for so they don't risk going against it. Religious people sometimes say that we were created to love one another....
It's my belief God created us to love us,
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pmCurious as to the goal of such a creation; millions of creatures loving one another. It's like a huge, So What?
Well, had you ever been in love, you would know the answer to that so what. As I clue, I can say it falls into two parts; what is good for each of us, and what is good for the world. The rest is better discovered than explained.

and spend, eventually, eternity with Him.
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pmWhat do you think was missing in god's existence that he needed companionship so badly that he was willing to create defective creatures knowing that only a few of them would make the grade, with all the others be thrown away (sent to hell). This being an outcome he is just fine with, and something he knew would be the outcome from the very beginning. (God being omniscient and all.)

Maybe nothing was missing. And He just decided to share that. As for the rest, I know a lot of Christians believe exactly what you say. Mainly from the more fundamentalist wing of the faith. However, I am not one of them. Seems to me that God is, as Jesus came to think, the loving Father of all manknd, righteous and unrighteous, from whatever race, nationality, faith, creed, colour, sex, gender, etc. I am sure none of us, not one, is ever thrown away.
Quite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pmActually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.
So you assert. But an argument by assertion is no argument, at all.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Re: Without God life has no purpose

Post #26

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:01 pmQuite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.
Actually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.
Even if freedom did follow from that, it's a freedom to say we can do as we like, not that we should. The objective purpose you get with a single, absolutely perfect creator god is that you now know what you should do, which is praise and glorify that god. It sucks to be somebody else's ego trip, but for some people it sucks worse to be constantly beaten over the head with this morality and that morality no you shouldn't do this, okay I won't, but don't you dare do THAT either, and always on the run, always in fear of a moral or polite person rearing their ugly head, each of them knowing for certain what I should and shouldn't do. And do I know better? Nope. I don't have a case that they're wrong.

That's where the validity of the purpose argument comes in.

If you're a creation created for a specific purpose, you do get that certainty. It also comes with being a robot - a broken robot that broke itself generations ago and must spend its life saying it's sorry - and most people don't want that if they think about it.

I, on the other hand, would trade eight billion masters for just one, even a mean one, if I thought that was on the table.

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Re: Without God life has no purpose

Post #27

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:34 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:01 pmQuite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.
Actually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.
Even if freedom did follow from that, it's a freedom to say we can do as we like, not that we should. The objective purpose you get with a single, absolutely perfect creator god is that you now know what you should do, which is praise and glorify that god. It sucks to be somebody else's ego trip...
God is perfect. He doesn't do ego trips, still less need us or expect us to praise and glorify Him. That is an entirely human desire to express wonder and gratitude. If we want to do so.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Without God life has no purpose

Post #28

Post by Tcg »

2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:01 pm
It's my belief God created us to love us, and spend, eventually, eternity with Him.
Someone should have given that message to his son:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The Bible presents a God that practices favoritism and cruelty. So much for love.

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Re: Without God life has no purpose

Post #29

Post by Miles »

2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:58 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:01 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:53 pm ...Now a minority of people (myself actually included) would prefer to know what they are intended for and what they are not intended for so they don't risk going against it. Religious people sometimes say that we were created to love one another....
It's my belief God created us to love us,
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pmCurious as to the goal of such a creation; millions of creatures loving one another. It's like a huge, So What?
Well, had you ever been in love, you would know the answer to that so what. As I clue, I can say it falls into two parts; what is good for each of us, and what is good for the world. The rest is better discovered than explained.
And what purpose does such good serve? Why not simply not create us in the first place and save the effort? God is also said to create evil.

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

What purpose do you think that serves?

and spend, eventually, eternity with Him.
Reminds me of

..........................
Image

Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pmWhat do you think was missing in god's existence that he needed companionship so badly that he was willing to create defective creatures knowing that only a few of them would make the grade, with all the others be thrown away (sent to hell). This being an outcome he is just fine with, and something he knew would be the outcome from the very beginning. (God being omniscient and all.)

Maybe nothing was missing. And He just decided to share that.
That what?

As for the rest, I know a lot of Christians believe exactly what you say. Mainly from the more fundamentalist wing of the faith. However, I am not one of them. Seems to me that God is, as Jesus came to think, the loving Father of all manknd, righteous and unrighteous, from whatever race, nationality, faith, creed, colour, sex, gender, etc. I am sure none of us, not one, is ever thrown away.
Tell that to all the slaves he condoned as the property of others. Tell that to all the practicing gays he ordered to be killed. Tell that to all the innocent women, children, and infants he ordered killed. Tell that to the 42 boys he had mauled by bears. Tell them how loving god is.

Quite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.
Our freedom comes from a love that has innocent people killed? How does that work?

Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pmActually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.
So you assert. But an argument by assertion is no argument, at all.
That's because it wasn't meant to be an argument, but a statements of fact. Just a simple FYI. :mrgreen:


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Re: Without God life has no purpose

Post #30

Post by Miles »

2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:56 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:34 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:45 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:01 pmQuite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.
Actually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.
Even if freedom did follow from that, it's a freedom to say we can do as we like, not that we should. The objective purpose you get with a single, absolutely perfect creator god is that you now know what you should do, which is praise and glorify that god. It sucks to be somebody else's ego trip...
God is perfect.
If god is perfect why would he be sorry he had made human beings on the earth? Perfect beings don't do things they're sorry for.
(Genesis 6:6 ICB]


If god is perfect why would he repent that He had made Saul king over Israel? Perfect beings don't do things they repent having done.
(1 Samuel 15:35 KJ21)


If god is perfect why would he deeply regret the disaster that he inflicted upon Jeremiah. Perfect beings don't do things they regret doing.
(Jeremiah 42:10 GNV)


If god is perfect why would he repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people. Perfect beings don't do things they repenteth of .
(Exodus 32:14 YLT)


As is patently obvious, God is far from perfect. AND what do we call all these things god was sorry for, repented having done, regretted doing, and repenteth of? MISTAKES! Not only is god not perfect but he makes mistakes, just like you and I. :mrgreen:


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