Without God life has no purpose

[2Dbunk]

Menotu wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by man, in 'Right or Wrong' forum]

Without God Life Has No Purpose

That's a horrible way of thinking to me. Why do we need to rely on something else to have purpose? Sounds like if you think this you're setting yourself up for failure. Unless you believe in this concept. Even still, I think deep down, you still are setting yourself up for failure as you can't compare to perfection, even when you can't provide what perfection is.

First (pardon me if it has been mentioned before), but doesn't this belong under 'Philosophy?'

So I answer this premise philosophically, and in a new thread under 'Philosophy,' if I may be permitted. Thjs is man's premise and he deserves credit for the original post).

WE LIVE -- that is an awesome plus, to say the least. It's the best show between Mercury and Pluto, par none -- AND BEYOND to as far as we can reconnoiter, and we can reconnoiter pretty far.

Let's see: we haven't found any angels sitting on clouds when we got that high with aeronautics; we went to the Moon but did not find heaven, but instead a crater pocked desert; need I go on? Maybe that hole ("no purpose") is really curiosity -- we can't seem to quench that desire to know! If there is a hole in non-theist's makeup, it has been put there by this mysterious 'God,' the Master of the Gaps.

So far, I've spoken for life's plethora of partying, and don't say that it isn't a party but some melancholy trek from cradle to grave, always worshipping that entity who died on the cross for us so that whoever believes of 'Him' will live in eternal melancholy. BUT THERE'S MORE (and theists talk of 'no purpose' other than living for "God!"):

EXISTENCE ITSELF -- The Cosmos exist, like no pot-pourri that has ever existed -- NAY, think of an infinite kaleidoscope accompanied by the grandest orchestra one can imagine, and that might get you one-tenth of what I'm trying to describe (keep in mind that one-tenth of infinity is equal to infinity). Now, an individual's 'hole' that you talk of on this scale is infinitesimal -- compare that to the meaning of the Cosmos and what do you have?

I'm all ears.

[Tcg]

[Replying to 2Dbunk in post #1]

Without death God has no purpose. One of the reasons humans created gods was to facilitate death denial.

'Hey, do you want to die?'

"Not really."

'Well, do I have a God for you!'


Tcg

[2ndRateMind]

Actually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.

So you assert. But an argument by assertion is no argument, at all.

That's because it wasn't meant to be an argument, but a statements of fact. Just a simple FYI.

So, justify those 'facts'. If you can. Don't expect me to believe them just because you say it is so.

Not until you answer MY challenges.

You said:

Well, had you ever been in love, you would know the answer to that so what. As I clue, I can say it falls into two parts; what is good for each of us, and what is good for the world. The rest is better discovered than explained.

And I asked:

And what purpose does such good serve? Why not simply not create us in the first place and save the effort? God is also said to create evil.

I can only speak for myself on this one. I'm glad He did create us. I'm rather enjoying my life at the moment, in my quiet sort of way.

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

What purpose do you think that serves?

1. We'd get bored very quickly if life was only good.
2. In our combat with evil, we develop the virtues and strength of character that make humanity such extraordinary animals
3. Unless we had the chance to do evil, as well as good, we would have no freedom.

Maybe nothing was missing. And He just decided to share that.

That what?

That nothing is missing,

Quite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.

Our freedom comes from a love that has innocent people killed? How does that work?

No idea. You'll have to ask God. But I am sure that because God loves us, He gave us freedom.

If god is perfect why would he be sorry he had made human beings on the earth?

If god is perfect why would he repent that He had made Saul king over Israel?

If god is perfect why would he deeply regret the disaster that he inflicted upon Jeremiah.

If god is perfect why would he repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.

I've already addressed these questions, earlier in the thread

I wouldn't give too much credence to the Bible. Especially the OT. It was written a long time ago, and humanity has made scientific, social, philosophical and theological progress since.

Would they change what god is said to have done? Personally, I don't see how.

No, they wouldn't change what He is said to have done. But they do inform our attitude to such allegations.

The gospels seem fairly reliable, though. For me, the main reason for the OT is simply because it places Jesus in the religion of His place and time, and allows us to appreciate the extent of the paradigm shift He wrought.

So, where do you get your information about god from?

Multiple sources, of which scripture is only one.

And if the OT was credible enough for Jesus to be brought up on why isn't it credible enough for you?

And ignore the progress humanity has made since Jesus, and often enough, because of Jesus?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Miles]

Actually, free will does not follow from that or from anything else. Free will is an illusion promulgated by the Church to save the concepts of sin and salvation, and is best forgotten or ignored.

So you assert. But an argument by assertion is no argument, at all.

That's because it wasn't meant to be an argument, but a statements of fact. Just a simple FYI.

So, justify those 'facts'. If you can. Don't expect me to believe them just because you say it is so.

Not until you answer MY challenges.

You said:

Well, had you ever been in love, you would know the answer to that so what. As I clue, I can say it falls into two parts; what is good for each of us, and what is good for the world. The rest is better discovered than explained.

And I asked:

And what purpose does such good serve? Why not simply not create us in the first place and save the effort? God is also said to create evil.

I can only speak for myself on this one. I'm glad He did create us. I'm rather enjoying my life at the moment, in my quiet sort of way.

Still doesn't address purpose:

pur·pose
noun: purpose; plural noun: purposes
the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
source: Oxford Languages

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

What purpose do you think that serves?

1. We'd get bored very quickly if life was only good.

Wouldn't occasionally stubbing our toe, or watching a football game, or playing a round of golf suffice to relive your boredom? Do you really need profoundly immoral and wicked people around to break the tedium?.

2. In our combat with evil, we develop the virtues and strength of character that make humanity such extraordinary animals

And you want to be extraordinary because___________what? Ego, self admiration, smugness?

3. Unless we had the chance to do evil, as well as good, we would have no freedom.

How does moral dualism such as good and evil produce freedom? Couldn't beautiful and ugly, or jealousy and unresentfulness, or selfishness and unselfishness work just as well?

Quite a lot follows from that, such as our freedom, including whether to believe in Hm or not, as we prefer, and why we should reciprocate that love as best we can, and why we should love each other.

Our freedom comes from a love that has innocent people killed? How does that work?

No idea. You'll have to ask God.

I believe I stopped talking to storybook characters when I was four.

If god is perfect why would he be sorry he had made human beings on the earth?

If god is perfect why would he repent that He had made Saul king over Israel?

If god is perfect why would he deeply regret the disaster that he inflicted upon Jeremiah.

If god is perfect why would he repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.

I've already addressed these questions, earlier in the thread

No you didn't. All you did was dismiss them as unworthy of addressing.

I wouldn't give too much credence to the Bible. Especially the OT. It was written a long time ago, and humanity has made scientific, social, philosophical and theological progress since.

Would they change what god is said to have done? Personally, I don't see how.

No, they wouldn't change what He is said to have done. But they do inform our attitude to such allegations.

And just what is your attitude toward these allegations, other than they aren't too credible? And just as a reminder, his repentance in Jeremiah 42:10 comes right from the horse's mouth.

So, where do you get your information about god from?
[/color]

Multiple sources, of which scripture is only one.

Should I assume your scriptures start with the New Testament?

And if the OT was credible enough for Jesus to be brought up on why isn't it credible enough for you?

And ignore the progress humanity has made since Jesus, and often enough, because of Jesus?

I assume you feel human progress has pretty much laid to rest everything god said in the OT, and despite Jesus finding value in it such value has all but disappeared?

.

[2ndRateMind]

Hmmm. Because I am a Christian, you seem to think I should accept everything the Bible says just so you can poor scorn on my beliefs. While you are at liberty to believe, for example, rubbish such as that there is no such thing as free-will, just an illusion promoted by the Church to sustain it's ideology. Do I detect the hint of a double standard at play here? Maybe the ghost of a prejudiced stereotype? Because, I'm sorry, it won't work like that. Even Christians have an intellect and critical faculties, and some us believe we are endowed with them because God intends for us to use them. Even on scripture. Now, all that said, if you moderate your tone, we might both enjoy a mutually profitable discussion. Otherwise, I see no reason to continue further.

Best wishes, 2RM.