Should criminals be punished?

[EarthScienceguy]

The United states has had a long history of individual freedom. At times this has led to times when the crime rate has increased, like for example from 1970's to 90's. This was increased was solved by in increasing the incarceration rate and then the crime rate decreased.

Why are people surprised when the read about God punishing sin in the Bible?

[Tart]

The United states has had a long history of individual freedom. At times this has led to times when the crime rate has increased, like for example from 1970's to 90's. This was increased was solved by in increasing the incarceration rate and then the crime rate decreased.

Why are people surprised when the read about God punishing sin in the Bible?

Hmm.. What is more surprising, God's punishment, or Grace? Surely God's grace... right? It seems like punishment is just a natural thing. We have seen it from when we were kid's, in our parents, in law, in courts...

It seems like Grace on the other hand, is totally beyond any of our reasonableness... What man has ever freely died for another, while that man was sinning against him? "Your sleeping with my girlfriend! (as he lays down his life for him)". lol.. Has that ever happened?

Grace my friend... is the surprise...

[Clownboat]

The United states has had a long history of individual freedom. At times this has led to times when the crime rate has increased, like for example from 1970's to 90's. This was increased was solved by in increasing the incarceration rate and then the crime rate decreased.

Why are people surprised when the read about God punishing sin in the Bible?

The Bible god is a jealous and unthinking god concept in a collection of books.

Because this god concept is jealous and unthinking, I'm personally not surprised to read about all the ineffective punishment of humans and animals it was claimed to have committed by ignorant ancient humans in the said book.

Therefore, your debate question should probably be revised for not being an accurate debate question. It also misses the mark by comparing a country to an almighty diety. Almighty dieties would have things available to them that countries could not. For example, if a country could snap its fingers and make all child molestors vanish into thin air, but didn't, we would hold the country to fault. These qualities are the realm of the god concepts who inspired our mythologies.

If you have read the Bible, you should know this god is just living up to its reputation. No surprises to be had.

It's only when people start applying attributes like love or omnipotence to this god concept where any surprises enter the equation.

[Zzyzx]

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The United states has had a long history of individual freedom. At times this has led to times when the crime rate has increased, like for example from 1970's to 90's. This was increased was solved by in increasing the incarceration rate and then the crime rate decreased.

Are you sure that increased incarceration was THE cause of crime rate decrease?

We should be cautious about accepting a single-cause answer to complex situations. Here are several discussions of multiple factors related to crime rate decreases after the mid 1990s

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ne/477408/
https://www.vox.com/2015/2/13/8032231/crime-drop
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2 ... 20ebc76f61
https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdf/10.1257 ... 4773563485
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014 ... me-decline

Cam anyone show that their favorite 'god' was involved?

[Divine Insight]

The United states has had a long history of individual freedom. At times this has led to times when the crime rate has increased, like for example from 1970's to 90's. This was increased was solved by in increasing the incarceration rate and then the crime rate decreased.

Why are people surprised when the read about God punishing sin in the Bible?

How does incarceration equate to punishment?

Incarceration itself is not a punishment. In fact, to think of it that way is absurd. People are incarcerated to protect the innocent society. In fact, those who are incarcerated are supposed to be placed into programs to reform and redeem them. Unfortunately our jails fail miserably at this real purpose.

But why should a God fail to reform, heal, and redeem criminals? He shouldn't.

So there's no excuse for a God to incarcerate people with no hope of reform or healing. And only that kind of hopeless inhumane incarceration would be "punishment".

Why are people surprised when the read about God punishing sin in the Bible?

Because the God the Bible discribes is a seriously troubled and mentally sick entity.

By the way, it's no "surprise" to those of us who recognize that the God of the Bible was indeed created by ignorant barbaric idiots. This is how we can easily know that the Biblical God is a work of pure fiction created by ignorant men. No truly intelligent God could possibly be that ignorant.

What does surprise me is when modern day people who should no better actually defend this kind of ignorance. It saddens me that humans are taking so long to evolve into something better than this kind of ignorance.

On the bright side, many of us have evolved to a much higher level and no longer support this kind of backward barbaric thinking in the name of an ancient God that was clearly invented by very sick and immature individuals.

So no, punishment is stupid. Criminals should not be punished. But they clearly do need to be dealt with, and if we had the power of a GOD we could heal them. And if there truly was a God that God could heal them as well. And there would never be a need to ever incarcerate anyone ever again.

So since criminals exist and do harm to innocent people, there obviously cannot be a God. A God would have no reason to allow such things to happen in the first place.

It's pretty sad when your best argument for a God is to argue that criminals should be punished. That's got to be an new all-time apologetic low.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 1 by EarthScienceguy]

Why are people surprised when the read about God punishing sin in the Bible?

Maybe because, if God is all knowing and all powerful, he could make it so there's no need for punishment. But he doesn't. That's disturbing to many.

[Diagoras]

The United states has had a long history of individual freedom.

As evidenced by the whole ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’ thing. Agreed.

At times this has led to <...>

Careful! It’s all too easy to commit a post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy when you try to link cause to effect.

<...> times when the crime rate has increased, like for example from 1970's to 90's.

Already answered by Zzyzx, I see.

This was increased (sic) was solved by in (sic) increasing the incarceration rate and then the crime rate decreased.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - unless you can cite evidence to support this claim.

Why are people surprised when the read (sic) about God punishing sin in the Bible?

Joining the dots, the claim appears to be along the lines of:

Freedom leads to crime
Incarceration is a form of punishment for crimes
Incarceration reduces future crimes
Sin is a form of crime against God
Crimes against God are punished
People should not be surprised at this.

I’m not sure exactly where this exceedingly long bow that you’re drawing is aiming at. Are you suggesting divine, biblical justice is warranted as punishment for crimes? That God should incarcerate more people for sins, rather than send them plagues and earthquakes? That having freedom is a big mistake? Or simply that any story of biblical genocide can be justified by reasoning that crime rates in cities you’ve destroyed tend to decline once you’ve murdered everyone in them (apart from the desirable young virgins, of course)?

I think plenty of people are just ‘surprised’ at just how unpleasant and xenophobic a lot of the bible’s treatment of ‘outsiders’ and minorities was.

[Bust Nak]

Why are people surprised when the read about God punishing sin in the Bible?

Because the system described is profoundly unjust. a) The punishment does not fit the crime. b) there is way to escape said punishment by shifting the it to an innocent.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 2 by Tart]

Hmm.. What is more surprising, God's punishment, or Grace? Surely God's grace... right? It seems like punishment is just a natural thing. We have seen it from when we were kid's, in our parents, in law, in courts...

It seems like Grace on the other hand, is totally beyond any of our reasonableness... What man has ever freely died for another, while that man was sinning against him? "Your sleeping with my girlfriend! (as he lays down his life for him)". lol.. Has that ever happened?

Grace my friend... is the surprise...

I agree with you that Grace is the great surprise. But one cannot understand what the Grace of God is unless they first understand what sin is and the punishment for sin.

As Paul said in Romans the law is the school master teaching us what sin is. Without the knowledge of sin there can be now repentance no turning from sin.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 5 by Divine Insight]

How does incarceration equate to punishment? Think

Incarceration itself is not a punishment. In fact, to think of it that way is absurd. People are incarcerated to protect the innocent society. In fact, those who are incarcerated are supposed to be placed into programs to reform and redeem them. Unfortunately our jails fail miserably at this real purpose.

Incarceration is punishment and it has always been punitive. The length of time that a person is incarcerated is determined by the crime in which they committed. And if they committed a enough crimes then they are sentenced to life. We have seen that there becomes a point in which a man will not change his behavior so to protect society they incarcerate them for the rest of their lives.

This is actually a Biblical principle. There is a point unless God miraculously intervenes that a man will not choose to conform to society's norms.

For example Ted Bundy, at the end of Ted Bundy's life Dr. James Dobson went into to talk with Ted Bundy and he seemed to have become a Christian. Did he actually become a Christian. Maybe. Do I think that he should have been acquitted because of his confession? No. Why, because we as humans cannot see what a person actually believes. If Bundy did become a Christian then I will find that out when I get to heaven. I have doubts about his confession of faith because I know how God operates. There is a point that God will let a man sin and never save him like the pharaoh of Egypt. The first few plagues the Bible tells us that the Pharaoh hardened his heart against God the last few plagues the Bible records that God harden the pharaoh's heart.

What does surprise me is when modern day people who should no better actually defend this kind of ignorance. It saddens me that humans are taking so long to evolve into something better than this kind of ignorance.

On the bright side, many of us have evolved to a much higher level and no longer support this kind of backward barbaric thinking in the name of an ancient God that was clearly invented by very sick and immature individuals.

Wow, watching Star Trek again. Maybe eventually Earth will be called paradise like on Star Trek.

But I don't think so. Because if you are equating atheism with some higher form of morality that is not what atheistic governments usher in. Atheistic governments usher in death and hate. They bring death and hatred for any that do not believe in what the state believes.

So no, punishment is stupid. Criminals should not be punished. But they clearly do need to be dealt with, and if we had the power of a GOD we could heal them. And if there truly was a God that God could heal them as well. And there would never be a need to ever incarcerate anyone ever again.

God did provide a way for people to turn from their sin. God has changed the ways of many who were involved in a life of crime. The only time sin was not part of the human race was when Adam was in the garden of eden. The choice for man has never changed. They can choose sin or they can choose God.

The fact that you say you do not agree with the morality of the Bible means that you are choosing sin and not God. In God's economy the sin that you commit is no different than the sin that a person who society incarcerates commits. So why would God place a premium on the one who is incarcerated.
They both broke His law.

So since criminals exist and do harm to innocent people, there obviously cannot be a God. A God would have no reason to allow such things to happen in the first place.

Yes He does. He will save some of those who commit those crimes. He will save some who are not incarcerated by the testimony of those that are incarcerated right now. There is no difference to God between those that sin and are incarcerated by their sin and those that sin and are not incarcerated because of their sin.

It's pretty sad when your best argument for a God is to argue that criminals should be punished. That's got to be an new all-time apologetic low.

Not just those that are incarcerated but anyone who sins will be punished. But as Tart said in the very first post the great surprise is grace.