Here are Jesus' words, taken from the King James Version:
John 5:19: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."
John 8:42: "[To the Pharisees] If God were your Father, ye would love me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."
(There Jesus says that he CAME FROM God. Obviously he thinks of his Father as "God." He differentiates between "God" and himself. He says God sent him. God is someone other than Jesus himself.)
John 10:34-36: Jesus' rebuttal after the Pharisees accuse him of "making himself God"...... "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I SAID, I AM THE SON OF GOD?"
John 12:49,50: "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak."
John 14:28: "My Father is greater than I."
John 17:3: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
John 20:17: "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God."
Revelation 3:12: (After Jesus returned to heaven, the Father is STILL greater than he is.) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from MY GOD: and I will write upon him my new name."
I welcome any comments. If you agree that Jesus Christ is not "God," I would very much like to know.
JESUS IS NOT GOD
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onewithhim
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Post #2
William: It is not very clear that The Father is Jehovah either. People believe what they will when things are not made crystal clear and obvious.
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brianbbs67
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Post #3
I agree IEOUS never said he was God directly. I also think whether he is or not. Matters not in the big picture. It is an unnesscessary dividing point for believers. Jesus called all back to God. And God's laws. Whether he was God incarnate really doesn't matter as the message is the point of his ministry. Follow God not man and man's traditions.
To William: I sure hope his father was God. If not, we would have to delete a lot of scripture.
To William: I sure hope his father was God. If not, we would have to delete a lot of scripture.
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Eloi
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Post #4
[Replying to William]
William said:
There are a lot of ways someone who read the Bible can be sure that the Father of Jesus is Jehovah ... a lot of them. I can show you four of them:
1) Is.61:1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners,  2 To proclaim the year of Jehovah’s goodwill And the day of vengeance of our God, To comfort all who mourn...
Compare with this::
Luke 4:16 He then went to Nazʹa·reth, where he had been brought up, and according to his custom on the Sabbath day, he entered the synagogue and stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free, 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.� 20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them: "Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.�
2) Deut. 18:15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Horʹeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.
Compare with this:
Acts 3:18 But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer. 19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’
3) Psalm 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.  8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession.
Compare with this:
Acts 13:33 God has completely fulfilled it to us, their children, by resurrecting Jesus; just as it is written in the second psalm: ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’
Heb.5:5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.�
4) Ps. 110:1 Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.�
Compare with this:
Heb.1:1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.
Eph. 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him. 18 He has enlightened the eyes of your heart, so that you may know to what hope he called you, what glorious riches he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones, 19 and how surpassing the greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation
Other help:
You can learn some things from the dialog between Jesus and the Samaritan woman in John 4:19-26 and check some of the Jesus' words to the Jews of his days here:
John 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God; 55 and yet YOU have not known him. But I know him. And if I said I do not know him I should be like YOU, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.
... and to the temple vendors and money changers here:
John 2:16 And he said to those selling the doves: “Take these things away from here! Stop making the house of my Father a house of merchandise!� 17 His disciples called to mind that it is written: “The zeal for your house will eat me up.�
... You may know who is the Father of Jesus if you know Who was the person the Jews worshiped in the temple of Jerusalem ... and if you don't know that, you can read 2 Chronicles 6.
I hope it helped you to be sure about Whom is Jesus' Father ... because in the Bible it is CRYSTAL CLEAR AND OBVIOUS.
William said:
Maybe it is not very clear for you, probably because you don't know much about what the Bible says ... but some people know.It is not very clear that The Father is Jehovah either. People believe what they will when things are not made crystal clear and obvious.
There are a lot of ways someone who read the Bible can be sure that the Father of Jesus is Jehovah ... a lot of them. I can show you four of them:
1) Is.61:1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners,  2 To proclaim the year of Jehovah’s goodwill And the day of vengeance of our God, To comfort all who mourn...
Compare with this::
Luke 4:16 He then went to Nazʹa·reth, where he had been brought up, and according to his custom on the Sabbath day, he entered the synagogue and stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free, 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.� 20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them: "Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.�
2) Deut. 18:15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Horʹeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.
Compare with this:
Acts 3:18 But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer. 19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’
3) Psalm 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.  8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession.
Compare with this:
Acts 13:33 God has completely fulfilled it to us, their children, by resurrecting Jesus; just as it is written in the second psalm: ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’
Heb.5:5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.�
4) Ps. 110:1 Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.�
Compare with this:
Heb.1:1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.
Eph. 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him. 18 He has enlightened the eyes of your heart, so that you may know to what hope he called you, what glorious riches he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones, 19 and how surpassing the greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation
Other help:
You can learn some things from the dialog between Jesus and the Samaritan woman in John 4:19-26 and check some of the Jesus' words to the Jews of his days here:
John 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God; 55 and yet YOU have not known him. But I know him. And if I said I do not know him I should be like YOU, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.
... and to the temple vendors and money changers here:
John 2:16 And he said to those selling the doves: “Take these things away from here! Stop making the house of my Father a house of merchandise!� 17 His disciples called to mind that it is written: “The zeal for your house will eat me up.�
... You may know who is the Father of Jesus if you know Who was the person the Jews worshiped in the temple of Jerusalem ... and if you don't know that, you can read 2 Chronicles 6.
I hope it helped you to be sure about Whom is Jesus' Father ... because in the Bible it is CRYSTAL CLEAR AND OBVIOUS.
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onewithhim
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Post #5
Brian, if Jesus' FATHER is God, how can Jesus be God?brianbbs67 wrote: I agree IEOUS never said he was God directly. I also think whether he is or not. Matters not in the big picture. It is an unnesscessary dividing point for believers. Jesus called all back to God. And God's laws. Whether he was God incarnate really doesn't matter as the message is the point of his ministry. Follow God not man and man's traditions.
To William: I sure hope his father was God. If not, we would have to delete a lot of scripture.
You say that Jesus "never said he was God directly." How did Jesus even HINT that he was God in those verses?
Whether or not Jesus is God is a very important point. It is necessary to know if he is or is not. To worship him as God totally misrepresents the truth about God, it is idolatry, and contradicts Jesus' own words when he calls himself "the truth." (John 14:6)
Don't the verses I quoted show quite plainly that Jesus and God are two different Persons?
Post #6
onewithhim wrote:
Brian, if Jesus' FATHER is God, how can Jesus be God?
Don't the verses I quoted show quite plainly that Jesus and God are two different Persons?
Mysteriously - Jesus is God, the Father is God but they are separate persons, as you say. I don't see why, when you happily accept other mysteries and miracles, the concept of Trinity is so preposterous. It may go against your private convictions but I don't see that this should prevent God from doing or existing in whatever miraculous form he chooses.
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Eloi
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Post #7
[Replying to marco]
We are not inventing a god, like non-theistic persons when they talk about "god".
God reveals Himself in the Bible, and our work is to know Him and help others to know Him. Now you know that the Bible teaches Jesus is not God, that the Father of Jesus is Jehovah and than the Father of Jesus is his own God and the God of Jesus followers. It is up to you whatever god you choose to talk about it, our God is Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus, the God of gods.
We are not inventing a god, like non-theistic persons when they talk about "god".
God reveals Himself in the Bible, and our work is to know Him and help others to know Him. Now you know that the Bible teaches Jesus is not God, that the Father of Jesus is Jehovah and than the Father of Jesus is his own God and the God of Jesus followers. It is up to you whatever god you choose to talk about it, our God is Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus, the God of gods.
Post #8
Eloi wrote:
Maybe it is not very clear for you, probably because you don't know much about what the Bible says ... but some people know.
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The Problem and the near 2000 year Solution
Post #91. Scripture has Jesus saying things that indicate his status less than God, the Father.
2. In a context of strict Jewish monotheism, Jesus ALSO claims full, co-equal Divinity and his listeners understand him so clearly, so unambiguously, they want to kill him for it, and in fact do kill him through the agency of Roman tyranny and corruption.
3. Other scripture likewise presents this apparent contradiction, Jesus as Man and Jesus as THE God. The various neo Arian explain around and linguistic arguments range from the strained and tenuous to the simply disingenuous ( that last more from their sincere reliance on dishonest sources, not their personal character).
So either Scripture is a utter mess of human contradictory creation or our either-or interpretation is at fault.
2. In a context of strict Jewish monotheism, Jesus ALSO claims full, co-equal Divinity and his listeners understand him so clearly, so unambiguously, they want to kill him for it, and in fact do kill him through the agency of Roman tyranny and corruption.
3. Other scripture likewise presents this apparent contradiction, Jesus as Man and Jesus as THE God. The various neo Arian explain around and linguistic arguments range from the strained and tenuous to the simply disingenuous ( that last more from their sincere reliance on dishonest sources, not their personal character).
So either Scripture is a utter mess of human contradictory creation or our either-or interpretation is at fault.
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onewithhim
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Re: The Problem and the near 2000 year Solution
Post #10Your number 1 is true. Jesus constantly indicated that his status is less than God. Number 2 is problematic. Strict Jewish monotheism has no room for any other Being besides Jehovah to be God. Any claim that Jesus would have made to be God would have been absolutely foreign to Jewish thought and belief, and so reprehensible that the new doctrine of three Gods in one would have to have been so clear that there would be no room for doubt about where Jesus stood on that. The Jews did not truly think that Jesus was claiming to be God They just accused him of that to get him in trouble so they could more easily get rid of him. He rebutted their accusations, as can be seen at John 10:34. The Jews were indignant that he said he was God's Son, but they never heard him say he was equal to God. In fact, they taunted him on the "cross," never accusing him then of claiming to be God, but they said what they knew him to have claimed to be:Saber Bob wrote: 1. Scripture has Jesus saying things that indicate his status less than God, the Father.
2. In a context of strict Jewish monotheism, Jesus ALSO claims full, co-equal Divinity and his listeners understand him so clearly, so unambiguously, they want to kill him for it, and in fact do kill him through the agency of Roman tyranny and corruption.
3. Other scripture likewise presents this apparent contradiction, Jesus as Man and Jesus as THE God. The various neo Arian explain around and linguistic arguments range from the strained and tenuous to the simply disingenuous ( that last more from their sincere reliance on dishonest sources, not their personal character).
So either Scripture is a utter mess of human contradictory creation or our either-or interpretation is at fault.
"He has put his trust in God; let Him now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, 'I am God's Son." (Matthew 27:43)
Sources that set forth the idea that Jesus is God's Son and not God are not the sources that are "disingenious," or "dishonest."
Would you care to comment on the verses that I quoted in the OP?
