JESUS IS NOT GOD

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onewithhim
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #141

Post by onewithhim »

Christ is indeed clear about the nature of God in John chapter 13-17, if we'd just give them a good read. Jesus states unequivocally in John 17 that the Father is the only true God. That is, aside from any involvement with Jesus Christ. Jesus does not count himself in on the fact that there is one God and only one God and that is the Father. Period. Not three Persons. Just one.


The Father is greater than Jesus.....John 14:28

The Father is still greater, even after Jesus went back to heaven.....I Corinthians 11:3; Revelation 3:12



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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #142

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onewithhim wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:11 pm
Christ is indeed clear about the nature of God in John chapter 13-17, if we'd just give them a good read.
Yes, I agree. I would implore you to do just that.
onewithhim wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:11 pm
Jesus states unequivocally in John 17 that the Father is the only true God.
That is, aside from any involvement with Jesus Christ.
No, that is surely not the case, as is clearly indicated by the word "and" in this very verse (3). And we cannot ignore -- as Jehovah's Witnesses seem wont to do -- verse 5, as I have said, where Jesus is very clear that He possessed the same glory with the Father even in eternity past. And considering Hebrews 13:8, where we read that Jesus is the same from eternity past to eternity future -- which Jehovah's Witnesses seem wont to apply only when it suits their narrative -- this was, is, and forever will be the case.
onewithhim wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:11 pm
Jesus does not count himself in on the fact that there is one God and only one God and that is the Father. Period. Not three Persons. Just one.
As a man, and thus our model -- and God, but having lain aside His status as God for our sake -- this is true.
onewithhim wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:11 pm
The Father is greater than Jesus.....John 14:28
And here again, Jehovah's Witnesses are wont to take this completely out of context. The father as the one who sends and commands is "greater" (in authority or leadership) than the Son. However, this does not mean that Jesus is inferior in His being and essence to the Father.
onewithhim wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:11 pm
The Father is still greater, even after Jesus went back to heaven.....I Corinthians 11:3; Revelation 3:12
Same thing; this statement is taking Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 11:3 and Christ's Himself in Revelation 3:12 completely out of context. What is indicated here is that within the triune Jehovah, the Father has a role of authority or leadership with respect to the Son, though they are equal in deity and attributes. Paul applies this truth about the Trinity in 1 Corinthians 11 to the relationship of husband and wife. In marriage, as in the Trinity, there is equality in being and value but difference in roles, as we see very clearly in Ephesians 5:22-33, also written by Paul.

The context is the same in Revelation 3. In verse 12, Jesus does say, "my God," referring to the Father. But later in the same address to the church in Laodicea, He also says, "If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with Me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Of course, the implication in this last sentence is, some will not hear, and that's unfortunate.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #143

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #142]
I don't see that Jesus had the SAME glory as the Father in times past. He is asking, at John 17:5, that God give him the glory that he had previously, alongside his Father. It doesn't say that his glory equaled the Father's glory. (You add a lot to a verse.)

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Re:

Post #144

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brianbbs67 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:09 am
Here's the interlinear for that :

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-58.htm

You could see just looking at the words what the reaction would be. Does it mean he claimed to be God? Maybe, but since every where else he says otherwise, I believe it to be wordplay to irritate the audience.
So you think He lied for shock value? Wow.

Okay, well, grace and peace to you, Brian.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #145

Post by Leonardo Betetto »

Clearly, Father is God, and Jesus is a Celestial Being, a god, an archangel.

https://leonardobetetto.com/en/God-and- ... y-Watcher/
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #146

Post by PinSeeker »

onewithhim wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:06 pm
[Replying to PinSeeker in post #142]
I don't see that Jesus had the SAME glory as the Father in times past. He is asking, at John 17:5, that God give him the glory that he had previously, alongside his Father. It doesn't say that his glory equaled the Father's glory. (You add a lot to a verse.)
It doesn't say otherwise, either.

You're right, you can add a lot to a verse, but of course to do so is heretical.

Having said that, though, Jesus does in fact acknowledge the glory He had with the Father from eternity past. That word 'with' is very important. It seems infinitely more likely that if the glory He had with the Father was inferior to that of the Father, Jesus would have been explicit in saying so. Rather, the word 'with' there very strongly signifies equality and sameness of glory.

Grace and peace to all.

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Re: Re:

Post #147

Post by brianbbs67 »

PinSeeker wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:38 pm
brianbbs67 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:09 am
Here's the interlinear for that :

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-58.htm

You could see just looking at the words what the reaction would be. Does it mean he claimed to be God? Maybe, but since every where else he says otherwise, I believe it to be wordplay to irritate the audience.
So you think He lied for shock value? Wow.

Okay, well, grace and peace to you, Brian.
I didn't say lie. YHVH was introduced again to the newly formed Israel as Ehyeh Asshur Ehyeh. "I am that which I will be" or I am for short. It was a very important phrase to the Hebrews. He used it to pluck at them for affect.

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Re: Re:

Post #148

Post by onewithhim »

brianbbs67 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:34 pm
PinSeeker wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:38 pm
brianbbs67 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:09 am
Here's the interlinear for that :

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-58.htm

You could see just looking at the words what the reaction would be. Does it mean he claimed to be God? Maybe, but since every where else he says otherwise, I believe it to be wordplay to irritate the audience.
So you think He lied for shock value? Wow.

Okay, well, grace and peace to you, Brian.
I didn't say lie. YHVH was introduced again to the newly formed Israel as Ehyeh Asshur Ehyeh. "I am that which I will be" or I am for short. It was a very important phrase to the Hebrews. He used it to pluck at them for affect.
Not necessarily "I Am," but "I Will Be." Exodus 3:14 doesn't really match what Jesus said at John 8:58, if one will do a little research. God clearly states his name in the next verse in Exodus, verse 15. He said that Moses should tell Israel that YHWH (commonly translated as Jehovah) has sent him. This would be His name throughout eternity. That name is found 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures.


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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #149

Post by brianbbs67 »

I didn't just say "Iam". I am that which I will be is the most correct. Even the RCC admits its probably Yahweh and they invented Yehovah in the 1200s. But, really doesn't matter which language we call His name in. What does matter is claiming one is better when no man alive knows or is saying today.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #150

Post by tigger 2 »

"YHVH was introduced again to the newly formed Israel as Ehyeh Asshur Ehyeh. "I am that which I will be" or I am for short. It was a very important phrase to the Hebrews."

Ehyeh as used everywhere else in the writings of Moses means "I will be." So ehyeh asher ehyeh meant "I will be whatever I will be." Tell them "I will be" has sent me to you. This provides a meaning for the third person name YHWH ("He will be") which is proclaimed in the next verse as His name (Compare Ps. 83:18, KJV).

This was not an especially meaningful phrase to the Hebrews; It is found only at this verse. Whereas YHWH is found as His personal name many thousands of times.

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