JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[Eloi]

Prov. 6:16 There are six things that Jehovah hates;
Yes, seven things that he detests:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart plotting wicked schemes, and feet that run quickly to evil,
19 A false witness who lies with every breath,
And anyone sowing contentions among brothers.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #1129]

And, also, Jesus is the Leader. And he delegates others to take the lead in the congregations. They do the things that Christ won't be doing himself, like answering letters from the GB, seeing to it that the brothers are taking care of the property at and around the Kingdom Halls, shepherding individuals in the congregation, etc., etc.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #1129]

And, also, Jesus is the Leader. And he delegates others to take the lead in the congregations. They do the things that Christ won't be doing himself, like answering letters from the GB, seeing to it that the brothers are taking care of the property at and around the Kingdom Halls, shepherding individuals in the congregation, etc., etc.

[tam]

Peace to you,

You quoted yourself just above, so it seems to me that you are looking for a response, so here goes...

[Replying to kjw47 in post #1129]

And, also, Jesus is the Leader. And he delegates others to take the lead in the congregations. They do the things that Christ won't be doing himself, like answering letters from the GB, seeing to it that the brothers are taking care of the property at and around the Kingdom Halls,

If that is all 'taking the lead' means, then no problem. Taking care of property, ensuring the bills are paid on time, mundane tasks such as these.

Not so mundane tasks might include ensuring that everyone in the congregation has enough (physical) food to eat, that no one is going hungry, that people have their basic necessities. What good is it to have a nicely manicured, rented 'kingdom hall', donations paying for that, when the people who are supposed to be the actual church are going hungry or lacking basic needs, unable to afford medications perhaps, etc? Though of course anyone may do this (give to the one in need), so that it does not have to be a delegated person. But you could have a delegated person to make sure everyone is being taken care of as needed.

That being said, Christ ALSO can personally direct His sheep to others in need.

The following however:

shepherding individuals in the congregation, etc., etc.

You included shepherding in something you said "Christ won't be doing himself"... and that is just untrue. Christ is the Shepherd of His flock. He ABSOLUTELY DOES shepherd His flock; cares for His sheep, teaches us, directs us, rebukes us as needed (Revelation 3:19), comforts us, speaks to us and FEEDS us (and here we will include 'manna'/spiritual food - and we can share that with others as well), just as He said that He would do.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

You quoted yourself just above, so it seems to me that you are looking for a response, so here goes...

[Replying to kjw47 in post #1129]

And, also, Jesus is the Leader. And he delegates others to take the lead in the congregations. They do the things that Christ won't be doing himself, like answering letters from the GB, seeing to it that the brothers are taking care of the property at and around the Kingdom Halls,

If that is all 'taking the lead' means, then no problem. Taking care of property, ensuring the bills are paid on time, mundane tasks such as these.

Not so mundane tasks might include ensuring that everyone in the congregation has enough (physical) food to eat, that no one is going hungry, that people have their basic necessities. What good is it to have a nicely manicured, rented 'kingdom hall', donations paying for that, when the people who are supposed to be the actual church are going hungry or lacking basic needs, unable to afford medications perhaps, etc? Though of course anyone may do this (give to the one in need), so that it does not have to be a delegated person. But you could have a delegated person to make sure everyone is being taken care of as needed.

That being said, Christ ALSO can personally direct His sheep to others in need.

The following however:

shepherding individuals in the congregation, etc., etc.

You included shepherding in something you said "Christ won't be doing himself"... and that is just untrue. Christ is the Shepherd of His flock. He ABSOLUTELY DOES shepherd His flock; cares for His sheep, teaches us, directs us, rebukes us as needed (Revelation 3:19), comforts us, speaks to us and FEEDS us (and here we will include 'manna'/spiritual food - and we can share that with others as well), just as He said that He would do.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The ones delegated by Christ do do all the other things that you describe, of course. Making sure everyone has what they need, and shepherding the flock.....that is the way Christ shepherds---with his delegated workers taking the lead in that. How does Christ do all that you say he does by himself? Of course he would use men on Earth to get his work done here. How does he teach and direct unless he would use his designated men to do it?

[Eloi]

(...)

Jehovah's Witnesses do not need anyone's permission to name our Governing Body in any special way, such as teachers, leaders or parents, or however we decide.

It is true that Jesus said not to call anyone Leader , Lord, Father, Teacher, Shepherd, etc ... but he meant something else than just using those words with respect to other people, but rather the attitude involved in those titles.

Obviously all human beings, believers or not, Christians or not, Jehovah's Witnesses or not, call other people fathers, leaders, teachers, sir/mister, shepherd, etc. What Jesus meant is that we do not consider these people as our Father, Leader or Lord/Sir/Mister, Shepherd, Teacher, in an absolute sense.

The anti-witnesses look for any pretext to criticize us. They are full of pure malicious criticism that does not even take into account the real reason for Christ's teachings: to love Jehovah above all things and to love one another with real love.

We don't have to explain ourselves to any anti-witness.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

You quoted yourself just above, so it seems to me that you are looking for a response, so here goes...

[Replying to kjw47 in post #1129]

And, also, Jesus is the Leader. And he delegates others to take the lead in the congregations. They do the things that Christ won't be doing himself, like answering letters from the GB, seeing to it that the brothers are taking care of the property at and around the Kingdom Halls,

If that is all 'taking the lead' means, then no problem. Taking care of property, ensuring the bills are paid on time, mundane tasks such as these.

Not so mundane tasks might include ensuring that everyone in the congregation has enough (physical) food to eat, that no one is going hungry, that people have their basic necessities. What good is it to have a nicely manicured, rented 'kingdom hall', donations paying for that, when the people who are supposed to be the actual church are going hungry or lacking basic needs, unable to afford medications perhaps, etc? Though of course anyone may do this (give to the one in need), so that it does not have to be a delegated person. But you could have a delegated person to make sure everyone is being taken care of as needed.

That being said, Christ ALSO can personally direct His sheep to others in need.

The following however:

shepherding individuals in the congregation, etc., etc.

You included shepherding in something you said "Christ won't be doing himself"... and that is just untrue. Christ is the Shepherd of His flock. He ABSOLUTELY DOES shepherd His flock; cares for His sheep, teaches us, directs us, rebukes us as needed (Revelation 3:19), comforts us, speaks to us and FEEDS us (and here we will include 'manna'/spiritual food - and we can share that with others as well), just as He said that He would do.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The ones delegated by Christ do do all the other things that you describe, of course. Making sure everyone has what they need, and shepherding the flock.....that is the way Christ shepherds---with his delegated workers taking the lead in that. How does Christ do all that you say he does by himself?

How did Christ direct Philip to the Ethiopian after He (Christ) had already ascended to heaven? How did He teach Paul all that He taught Paul? How did He teach Peter not to call unclean that which God made clean? How did He instruct Ananias to go to Paul (Saul still at the time) after the road to Damascus experience?

Of course he would use men on Earth to get his work done here. How does he teach and direct unless he would use his designated men to do it?

How do THEY teach and direct?



Peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

(...)

Jehovah's Witnesses do not need anyone's permission to name our Governing Body in any special way, such as teachers, leaders or parents, or however we decide.

It is true that Jesus said not to call anyone Leader , Lord, Father, Teacher, Shepherd, etc ... but he meant something else than just using those words with respect to other people, but rather the attitude involved in those titles.

Obviously all human beings, believers or not, Christians or not, Jehovah's Witnesses or not, call other people fathers, leaders, teachers, sir/mister, shepherd, etc. What Jesus meant is that we do not consider these people as our Father, Leader or Lord/Sir/Mister, Shepherd, Teacher, in an absolute sense.

Then you must find no problem with catholic priests being called "father". Otherwise it would be hypocrisy, right?

The anti-witnesses look for any pretext to criticize us. They are full of pure malicious criticism that does not even take into account the real reason for Christ's teachings: to love Jehovah above all things and to love one another with real love.

Could a catholic say the same thing about you?

"The 'anti-catholic' looks for any pretext to criticize us. They are full of pure malicious criticism that does not even take into account the real reason for Christ's teachings: to love "Jehovah" above all things and to love one another with real love."


From your own literature:

Is the religious title “father” correct? It is used widely by Roman Catholics and Anglicans. “Padre,” meaning “father,” is also widely used. But Jesus taught his disciples: “You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.” (Matthew 23:9, NJB) The New English Bible reads similarly: “Do not call any man on earth ‘father.’” Why do clergymen and their followers disobey this command from the Lord Jesus Christ?

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101 ... ther&p=par

We don't have to explain ourselves to any anti-witness.

No one has to explain themselves to anyone on this forum. But it IS a discussion/debate forum, so it does tend to be the place where people discuss, question, ask for evidence, of claims being made. For me, I hold all things - all claims, all teachings - up against Christ. In theory, doesn't your religion encourage people to test all things? Why criticize a person for doing just that?

As for anti-witness... I am a witness to Christ. If someone else's witness is shown to be contradictory to Christ, then the problem lies not with the person pointing it out, but with the testimony or teaching that contradicts Christ.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Ithinkbiblical_doyou]

The Son of God, the Sprit of God both, have an eternal relation with God.
God, His Son, and His Spirit share 1 nature and 1 essence.

Do you want me to prove Jesus deity?
Do you want me to answer your arguments( tbh they are easy to refute) ?
Do you want me to show you the personhood of the spirit?
Do you want me to show you that there is only 1 God?
If I did all the above, would you then have a trinity and accept truth?

here is the def of the trinity:

Father is GOD
Son is GOD
Spirit is GOD
Father is not Son is not Sprit is not Father...
God is one, and there is one God
Father, Son, and Sprit exist eternally
God IS 3 persons, they are not manifestations.

[onewithhim]

The Son of God, the Sprit of God both, have an eternal relation with God.
God, His Son, and His Spirit share 1 nature and 1 essence.

Do you want me to prove Jesus deity?
Do you want me to answer your arguments( tbh they are easy to refute) ?

If you would respond to the OP that would be very nice. Take each of those verses and tell how it shows that Jesus IS God. (And these arguments are NOT easy to refute.) I anxiously await your responses to the OP verses.