JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[onewithhim]

Sadly, this topic got way off subject. Jesus has been shown to NOT be God, and there are excellent reasons to be certain of this. I hope folks looking in here will give thought to the original post and compare all the donations to this subject before making up their minds. Jesus himself said that he was not God but God's SON, and he stated that the Father (who alone is God) is greater than he was and is. (John 10:36; John 17:3; John 14:28)

But what about those statements where Jesus is identified as god or identifies himself as god?

1. John 10:30 “The Father [God] and I are one.”

2. Philippians 2:5-6 “You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”

3. John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“

4. Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.”

5. Revelation 1:17-18 “When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.“

6. John 20:27-28 “Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Or is said to have the characteristics of god?

7. Colossians 2:9-10 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.“

8. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.“
8. John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.“

Or where others say Jesus claimed to be god?

9. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“

.

It can be said that YOU are cherry-picking as well. That having been said, all of your citings can be answered with rebuttals to your stated theories.

1. JOHN 10:30 "The Father [God] and I are one." How else could this be understood than what you are saying (that Jesus is God)? How can two individuals be "one"? Could it be just as is brought out at John 17:21-23? The disciples were said to be "one" with Jesus and his Father, just as Jesus and his Father were "one." Are the disciples also God?

2. What version of the Bible are you using? I don't think that it actually says that Jesus "was God." PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 It actually says: "Although he was existing in God's form, he gave no consideration to a seizure, that he should be equal to God." (NWT) The NAB says the same thing: "Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be grasped." The NASB also says the same, and Young's Literal Translation says, as well, that Christ was "in the form of God," not God. Being "in the form of" does not mean that one is the same. Jesus was (and is now) a spirit, just as God is (John 4:24). That is what "in the form of" means. Not that Jesus is God, but that he is a spirit, just as God is, and that is what the scripture you cited means.

3. JOHN 1:18 "...the one and only Son, who is himself God..." Again, what version are you using? All the versions I have say what the King James says... "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Where does it say that Jesus is himself God? Jesus Christ is close to God (in His bosom), and because no one can see God or has ever seen God, he, Jesus, has declared, or, explained Him.

4. ISAIAH 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and the last; besides me there is no god.'" This Scripture does not say anything about Jesus Christ. The LORD is Jehovah, the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV). Everywhere the Scripture says "LORD," that is where the personal name of God should be (though men replaced it long ago with "LORD").....the name is JEHOVAH. We can see the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) in those Scriptures in a Jewish Bible. It is the four Hebrew letters that make up the personal name of God. I have several Jewish Bibles, and the Tetragrammaton is there in all 7,000 instances of the Divine Name being referred to. Young's Literal Translation bears me out in this. It translates the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew, to "Jehovah" in the English version.

I will reply to 4 more a bit later.

[Miles]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #1]

Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

Lest we forget, Jesus also said:

John 10:30
“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: The Father [God] and I are one.”

And:

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.”


Then we have the claim of Paul:


Philippians 2:5-6
“You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”

The Bible says Jesus is an “heir” of God (Hebrew 1:2), and a “joint-heir” with us (Romans 8:17). But if Christ is a co-eternal “Person” in the “Godhead” then he cannot be an heir “of God” because being God would put him into a position to be a full owner of everything and that would mean there would be nothing he could “inherit” which is why Jesus cannot be God and an heir of God at the same time. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the “image of God” Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4). If Christ is the image of God, then he cannot be God because a person cannot be himself and an image of himself at the same time. Jesus can be called the “image” of God because he always did the will of God, and because he was the image of God is why he could say you had seen the Father if you had seen him.

Ephesians 4:4-6 says there is one God and one Lord and one spirit. This verse teaches exactly what the Jews expected based on the Old Testament and what Jesus, Peter, Paul, and others taught: that there was one God, one Lord, and one spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 8:6 says “for us there is one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus Christ.” This simple and straightforward language elucidates that the Father is God and the Son is “Lord” making a clear differentiation between the two.

Jesus said: “…the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). In contrast, the orthodox formula of the Trinity says the Father and the Son are “co-equal.” God is greater than Christ, just as Christ is greater than we are. 1 Corinthians 3:23 says “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.” When the Bible says “you are Christ’s” it's saying “you belong to Christ” and many English versions say exactly that (i.e., CJB; HCSB; NASB; NET; NJB; NLT). So the verse is saying “and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God” (NASB). It seems apparent that Jesus cannot be God and belong to God at the same time.

Then it comes down to gross contradictions doesn't it. Either your Bible is not trustworthy and necessarily puts everything it says into question. Or God is playing with the believer, tempting him to come up with exceedingly twisted apologetics to save his theology.

Personally, in as much as God has made several self-admitted mistakes, I think either answer suffices. An incompetent god or one who gets a kick out of watching his creatures play "The Salvation Game," and fracturing his Jesus religion into 45,000+ denominations throughout the world. Of course, maybe this is what he had in mind from the outset. Discombobulate Christianity in such a way as to make sure it would never be cohesive. Considering how wise he is said to be---putting his mistakes aside of course---and taking a look at how badly the Bible is written and the many, many, ways it can be interpreted, the whole thing certainly does look preplanned.

But why?



.



.

[onewithhim]

Sadly, this topic got way off subject. Jesus has been shown to NOT be God, and there are excellent reasons to be certain of this. I hope folks looking in here will give thought to the original post and compare all the donations to this subject before making up their minds. Jesus himself said that he was not God but God's SON, and he stated that the Father (who alone is God) is greater than he was and is. (John 10:36; John 17:3; John 14:28)

But what about those statements where Jesus is identified as god or identifies himself as god?

1. John 10:30 “The Father [God] and I are one.”

2. Philippians 2:5-6 “You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”

3. John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“

4. Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.”

5. Revelation 1:17-18 “When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.“

6. John 20:27-28 “Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Or is said to have the characteristics of god?

7. Colossians 2:9-10 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.“

8. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.“
8. John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.“

Or where others say Jesus claimed to be god?

9. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“

.

It can be said that YOU are cherry-picking as well. That having been said, all of your citings can be answered with rebuttals to your stated theories.

1. JOHN 10:30 "The Father [God] and I are one." How else could this be understood than what you are saying (that Jesus is God)? How can two individuals be "one"? Could it be just as is brought out at John 17:21-23? The disciples were said to be "one" with Jesus and his Father, just as Jesus and his Father were "one." Are the disciples also God?

2. What version of the Bible are you using? I don't think that it actually says that Jesus "was God." PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 It actually says: "Although he was existing in God's form, he gave no consideration to a seizure, that he should be equal to God." (NWT) The NAB says the same thing: "Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be grasped." The NASB also says the same, and Young's Literal Translation says, as well, that Christ was "in the form of God," not God. Being "in the form of" does not mean that one is the same. Jesus was (and is now) a spirit, just as God is (John 4:24). That is what "in the form of" means. Not that Jesus is God, but that he is a spirit, just as God is, and that is what the scripture you cited means.

3. JOHN 1:18 "...the one and only Son, who is himself God..." Again, what version are you using? All the versions I have say what the King James says... "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Where does it say that Jesus is himself God? Jesus Christ is close to God (in His bosom), and because no one can see God or has ever seen God, he, Jesus, has declared, or, explained Him.

4. ISAIAH 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and the last; besides me there is no god.'" This Scripture does not say anything about Jesus Christ. The LORD is Jehovah, the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV). Everywhere the Scripture says "LORD," that is where the personal name of God should be (though men replaced it long ago with "LORD").....the name is JEHOVAH. We can see the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) in those Scriptures in a Jewish Bible. It is the four Hebrew letters that make up the personal name of God. I have several Jewish Bibles, and the Tetragrammaton is there in all 7,000 instances of the Divine Name being referred to. Young's Literal Translation bears me out in this. It translates the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew, to "Jehovah" in the English version.

I will reply to 4 more a bit later.

[Peterlag]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #1]

Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

Lest we forget, Jesus also said:

John 10:30
“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: The Father [God] and I are one.”

And:

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.”


Then we have the claim of Paul:



Here's a look at John 10:30


John 10:30. Let's look at that...

There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God." The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what they meant... he and his Father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, "... he who plants and he who waters are one..." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NKJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up "one being." Christ uses the concept of "being one" in other places, and from them one can see that "one purpose" is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God's children "one." In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be "one" as he and God were "one." I think it's obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being in "substance" just as he and his Father were one being or "substance." I believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose.

Philippians 2:5-6
“You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”

The Bible says Jesus is an “heir” of God (Hebrew 1:2), and a “joint-heir” with us (Romans 8:17). But if Christ is a co-eternal “Person” in the “Godhead” then he cannot be an heir “of God” because being God would put him into a position to be a full owner of everything and that would mean there would be nothing he could “inherit” which is why Jesus cannot be God and an heir of God at the same time. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the “image of God” Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4). If Christ is the image of God, then he cannot be God because a person cannot be himself and an image of himself at the same time. Jesus can be called the “image” of God because he always did the will of God, and because he was the image of God is why he could say you had seen the Father if you had seen him.

Ephesians 4:4-6 says there is one God and one Lord and one spirit. This verse teaches exactly what the Jews expected based on the Old Testament and what Jesus, Peter, Paul, and others taught: that there was one God, one Lord, and one spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 8:6 says “for us there is one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus Christ.” This simple and straightforward language elucidates that the Father is God and the Son is “Lord” making a clear differentiation between the two.

Jesus said: “…the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). In contrast, the orthodox formula of the Trinity says the Father and the Son are “co-equal.” God is greater than Christ, just as Christ is greater than we are. 1 Corinthians 3:23 says “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.” When the Bible says “you are Christ’s” it's saying “you belong to Christ” and many English versions say exactly that (i.e., CJB; HCSB; NASB; NET; NJB; NLT). So the verse is saying “and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God” (NASB). It seems apparent that Jesus cannot be God and belong to God at the same time.

Then it comes down to gross contradictions doesn't it. Either your Bible is not trustworthy and necessarily puts everything it says into question. Or God is playing with the believer, tempting him to come up with exceedingly twisted apologetics to save his theology.

Personally, in as much as God has made several self-admitted mistakes, I think either answer suffices. An incompetent god or one who gets a kick out of watching his creatures play "The Salvation Game," and fracturing his Jesus religion into 45,000+ denominations throughout the world. Of course, maybe this is what he had in mind from the outset. Discombobulate Christianity in such a way as to make sure it would never be cohesive. Considering how wise he is said to be---putting his mistakes aside of course---and taking a look at how badly the Bible is written and the many, many, ways it can be interpreted, the whole thing certainly does look preplanned.

But why?



.



.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #463]

5. Revelation 1:17,18 "...I am the first and the last..." The Alpha and Omega is God, Jehovah. In this particular passage, the original Greek shows that the two Greek letters for Alpha and Omega do not appear here. Look at it in an Interlinear Bible. It doesn't say in the Greek: Alpha and Omega. It is just "first and last." They look to mean the same, but they are not. This is the only "first and last" that applies to Jesus. The Alpha and Omegas apply to God Almighty only, and He is the Father, Jehovah, who sits on the throne. They are two separate Persons, as even a cursory reading of the Revelation will show you. "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name AND the name of his Father written on their foreheads....These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God AND to the Lamb." (Revelation 14:1,4) TWO Persons mentioned here. God and the Lamb Jesus. Why do you try so hard to exclude Jehovah God Almighty from the Scriptures?

6. John 20:27,28 "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!" Nowhere else in the Scriptures is there even a hint that the disciples thought that Jesus was God. Could Thomas have simply been exclaiming shock and awe, as we might say ourselves---Oh My God!---when confronted with something shocking to ourselves? I think so. Thomas knew that Jesus was not God Almighty. He had known that Jesus spent hours in the garden praying to God before he was arrested. Who did he think Jesus was praying to? God. If the disciples had thought that Jesus was God, surely John would have indicated such in his last comments in that chapter of his gospel, but he clearly says who Jesus is in his estimation: "These have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:31) Jesus himself, and his disciples, have repeatedly said that Jesus is God's Son, not God. (John 10:36; Matthew 16:16)

7. Colossians 2:9,10 "...in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily..." I do not argue with this. Jesus exemplifies all of his Fathers attributes, as has been said in previous verses in Colossians: "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation." (Colossians 1:15)

8. John 1:1 "...the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God." Now, this has problems. First of all, how can someone be WITH someone else and yet BE that other someone? That does not make any sense. Secondly, the Greek language does not allow for that interpretation, that the Word was God. It is known that there are no upper case letters and there is no punctuation, just as in Hebrew. So a literal word-for-word reading would be: the word was with the god and the word was a god. The way that Greek speakers can tell who is unique and one-of-a-kind is the article for "the" before a noun. If the article does not exist before a noun, we know that it is not the one and only. The word "god," after all, meant, to Greek speaking folks, an individual who was powerful and important. It could refer to human judges, as Jesus brought out, or someone in a high government position. That is what John was trying to get across. The Word, Jesus, was an important powerful person, distinguishable from THE god who is unique, one of a kind.

John 1:14 that you present does not differ from what I have said here. In fact, it proves my point. It refers to "the only SON from the Father." Thank you for that.

9. JOHN 10:33 This shows what the Pharisees ACCUSED Jesus of doing..."making himself God." They were lying. They just wanted to get rid of him and would say anything to disparage him. He never claimed to be God. They even said that he was from the Devil and had a demon (John 8:48,52). Were they telling the truth? Do you want to believe them?

[Revelations won]

Dear Onewithhim,

Yes indeed Jude is speaking of God our savior even Jehovah who is Jesus Christ our Savior. Yes indeed, Christ is indeed Immanuel or God with us as the scriptures so testify. He is the great I Am.

God the Father (Eloheim) did not create the earth. This earth was created under his direction by his Son who is our very redeemer and savior.

If one were to accept your JW theology, one would have to accept the doctrine that God is not omnipotent, because he would be powerless to save and exalt his posterity without Jesus Christ.

I find it interesting that your theology teaches us that Adam, Eve and we should remain ignorant of the knowledge of good and evil. Is it not far better that they and our eyes should be opened to understand good and evil the we could learn by our own experience and exercise of “agency”to discern between good and evil?

It is very apparent from Genesis that Adam’s and Eve’s eyes were opened to Clearly discern between good and evil. Should not therefore the offspring of all of God’s children likewise have their eyes opened that they also could discern between good and evil that they might be better prepared to face the challenges of mortality?

Did not the Gods in Genesis clearly testify that “the man has become as one of us, to know good from evil?

Is it not obvious that mortality was a part and parcel of God’s plan for us so that we could fully exercise our
God given agency to act and not be acted upon to work out our salvation and exaltation?


It should also be very clear that Christ was and is the Word as stated in:

Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Isaiah 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
23
Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

It is also very clear that CHRIST IS INDEED THE WORD OF GOD AND THAT HE IS INDEED GOD THE SON.

It also appears that there are are many today who have the same problem as the Jews had in his day, as shown below in verse 10 and 11 wherein they knew him not and they received him not.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Col. 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

There is only one creator and only one redeemer, who is Jehovah or Jesus Christ. God the father (Eloheim) did not create this heaven and this earth.

Hebrews 1:God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
You deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, even though the angels of God the Father are to also worship Jesus Christ who is God the Son. If God’s angels Pareto reverence the son, should we not likewise also do likewise?

Kind regards,
RW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Revelations won in post #466]
Please see posts 463 and 465. Until those verses can be explained by you or Miles, I'm not interested in any other arguments. Please explain why you disagree with my specific statements, taking each verse into consideration, rather than just a blanket statement of denial.

BTW, I agree that Jesus created all things WITH and FOR his FAther, whom you yourself have stated is true. So they are two separate individuals, according to your own post. Jehovah, the Father, says that he is the Creator, and this doesn't contradict the fact that Jesus created everything. Jesus got his power and direction from the Father, so the Father is the ultimate Source of the power it took to create all things. Knowing this, it can be said that BOTH the Father and Jesus are the Creators of the universe. The power and direction from the Father, and the sum and substance of creation by the Son. Without the FAther, the Son could do nothing. (John 5:19)

[Miles]

Sadly, this topic got way off subject. Jesus has been shown to NOT be God, and there are excellent reasons to be certain of this. I hope folks looking in here will give thought to the original post and compare all the donations to this subject before making up their minds. Jesus himself said that he was not God but God's SON, and he stated that the Father (who alone is God) is greater than he was and is. (John 10:36; John 17:3; John 14:28)

But what about those statements where Jesus is identified as god or identifies himself as god?

1. John 10:30 “The Father [God] and I are one.”

2. Philippians 2:5-6 “You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”

3. John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“

4. Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.”

5. Revelation 1:17-18 “When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.“

6. John 20:27-28 “Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Or is said to have the characteristics of god?

7. Colossians 2:9-10 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.“

8. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.“
8. John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.“

Or where others say Jesus claimed to be god?

9. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“

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It can be said that YOU are cherry-picking as well. That having been said, all of your citings can be answered with rebuttals to your stated theories.

1. JOHN 10:30 "The Father [God] and I are one." How else could this be understood than what you are saying (that Jesus is God)? How can two individuals be "one"? Could it be just as is brought out at John 17:21-23? The disciples were said to be "one" with Jesus and his Father, just as Jesus and his Father were "one." Are the disciples also God?

No, because Jesus isn't stating a fact, but wishing

John 17:21 (Living Bible)
21 My prayer for all of them is that they will be of one heart and mind, just as you and I are, Father.

2. What version of the Bible are you using? I don't think that it actually says that Jesus "was God." PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6

Well it does.

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 (New Living Translation)
5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.

6 Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.

3. JOHN 1:18 "...the one and only Son, who is himself God..." Again, what version are you using? All the versions I have say what the King James says... "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Where does it say that Jesus is himself God? Jesus Christ is close to God (in His bosom), and because no one can see God or has ever seen God, he, Jesus, has declared, or, explained Him.

Here you go.

JOHN 1:18 (New International Version)
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known

4. ISAIAH 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and the last; besides me there is no god.'" This Scripture does not say anything about Jesus Christ. The LORD is Jehovah, the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV). Everywhere the Scripture says "LORD," that is where the personal name of God should be (though men replaced it long ago with "LORD").....the name is JEHOVAH. We can see the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) in those Scriptures in a Jewish Bible. It is the four Hebrew letters that make up the personal name of God. I have several Jewish Bibles, and the Tetragrammaton is there in all 7,000 instances of the Divine Name being referred to. Young's Literal Translation bears me out in this. It translates the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew, to "Jehovah" in the English version.

Good catch.

5. Revelation 1:17,18 "...I am the first and the last..." The Alpha and Omega is God, Jehovah. In this particular passage, the original Greek shows that the two Greek letters for Alpha and Omega do not appear here. Look at it in an Interlinear Bible. It doesn't say in the Greek: Alpha and Omega. It is just "first and last." They look to mean the same, but they are not. This is the only "first and last" that applies to Jesus. The Alpha and Omegas apply to God Almighty only, and He is the Father, Jehovah, who sits on the throne. . . . . . "

Revelation 1:17,18 (the Living Bible) [Jesus speaking]
17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead; but he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! Though I am the First and Last, the Living One who died, who is now alive forevermore, who has the keys of hell and death—don’t be afraid!

6.6. John 20:27,28 "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!" Nowhere else in the Scriptures is there even a hint that the disciples thought that Jesus was God.

So what? In John 20:27-28 Jesus is thought of as god.

John 20:27-28 (Easy Reading Bible.)
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

8. John 1:1 "...the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God." Now, this has problems. First of all, how can someone be WITH someone else and yet BE that other someone? That does not make any sense.

Although, I take it, you feel the Trinity makes sense !!! However, just to put a finer point on the verse:

John 1:1-2 (the Living Bible)
1-2 Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. He has always been alive and is himself God.

.

[myth-one.com]

BTW, I agree that Jesus created all things WITH and FOR his FAther, whom you yourself have stated is true. So they are two separate individuals, according to your own post. Jehovah, the Father, says that he is the Creator, and this doesn't contradict the fact that Jesus created everything.

The spiritual being called the Word created everything ever created:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In Genesis, man and woman were created on the last day of creation -- the sixth day:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Many things were created in the first five days before the creation of man on the sixth day.

Jesus Christ was a man:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus could not have created everything ever created because Jesus was a man, and man was not even created until the sixth day of creation.

So it is impossible that Jesus could have created anything in the first five days of creation because mankind did not even exist during that period.

Jesus did not exist until about 4,000 years after the creation of Adam.

You're confusing The Word with Jesus.

<===================================>

Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.

7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,

8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

"Was God" in verse 2 is referring to the past tense. Prior to being "made flesh" as a man the Word was God.

The Word made flesh was Jesus -- and no longer a God, but a man. But the Word continued unchanged throughout Jesus' human life because the Word is an immortal being.

The Word was OK with the idea of becoming a man for a few years and all the pain which that entailed.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #469]

I stand by everything I said, and I'll leave it to the folks who read it to decide for themselves what makes sense to them. You haven't gotten the point of anything I posted. You quote certain Bibles, yet ignore what I posted about OTHER Bible versions. What harmonizes with all other Scriptures?

We must agree to disagree.