Even if Jesus is God..

[Elijah John]

Even if Jesus is God, didn't he focus on glorifying the Father more so than himself? Didn't he teach us to focus on the Father? To pray to the Father and worship the Father alone?

If so, why do so many modern Christians pray to Jesus instead, and worship Jesus as their main focus of devotion?

[Divine Insight]

If so, why do so many modern Christians pray to Jesus instead, and worship Jesus as their main focus of devotion?

No Christians that I have ever personally known have ever prayed to Jesus.

They pray to God and then end their prayers with, "In Jesus' name we pray".

So they are praying to God, in Jesus' name.

They also believe that God told them to hear Jesus and do as he says.

Matt.17[5] While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Mark.9[7] And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Luke.9[35] And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

So according to Christianity God instructed humans to focus on Jesus.

Also we have the following:

John.14[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

This tells us that Jesus does not speak for himself, but rather he speaks the word of God. And he says the following:

John.14[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Since Jesus doesn't speak for himself, but rather he speaks the Word of God, then it's God who is telling us that no one comes to him but through Jesus.

So any attempt to by-pass Jesus would be a rejection of God's direct commandments.

This is how Christianity attempts to seal the patent rights on God. No one came come to God directly but instead must go through the demigod of Christianity. It's the "Only Way". "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me".

In the Patent office of theology Christianity claims sole patent rights to God. Period. That's their theological tactic. Only through their demigod Christ can you get to God. Any attempt to by-pass the demigod Christ of Christianity will result in your certain condemnation.

Is you don't like it, no problem. You are more then welcome to "choose" to go directly to hell if you like. Remember, it's all about free will choice, and if you refuse to obey God's directives to come to him through Christ, then you've just signed your own condemnation certificate.

It's called "The Art of the Steal". How to steal a culture's religion and condemn all those who refuse to acknowledge that your religion is now the proud owner of God.

[onewithhim]

Even if Jesus is God, didn't he focus on glorifying the Father more so than himself? Didn't he teach us to focus on the Father? To pray to the Father and worship the Father alone?

If so, why do so many modern Christians pray to Jesus instead, and worship Jesus as their main focus of devotion?

That is one of the reasons that we know Jesus is not God, because he directed ALL worship and recognition to go to the Father.

He absolutely taught us to focus on the Father, to pray to Him and to worship Him alone as God.

I also scratch my head in bewilderment because just about everyone I know who calls themselves a Christian worships Jesus as God. It's a puzzle. I guess it has to do with people belonging to a certain religion that they consider a kind of social club. Whatever the club sets forth as a path to follow, they follow just to be a good pal or friend, and do not want to rock the boat. It is unfortunate, in light of the fact that Jesus will hand back the Kingdom to "his God and Father," after the thousand-year reign. Then everyone will have to admit that the Father is "all things to everyone." Even Jesus will clearly be seen to be subordinate to the Father, though most people denied that for many hundreds of years.

"Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. For God 'subjected all things under his feet.' But when he says that 'all things have been subjected,' it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinthians 15:24-28)


Does this really sound like Jesus is God? I don't see how it can.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 3 by onewithhim]

Perhaps they got their lead from Paul.."For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain". That kind of language should be reserved for Jehovah alone. Paul, in effect, has made a God out of "Christ".

Even so, Jesus of Nazareth taught his disciples to focus on the Father, not on himself. EXCEPT in the Gospel of John. In that Gospel he seems to grasp, and lay claim to the glory of the Father.

[brianbbs67]

The Southern Baptists are encouraging this Jesus worship in my area. I was always taught to pray to God , only. Yet, I heard my own father pray to Jesus at thanksgiving 3 years ago. Its not right according to the bible or the law. Sheople are being indoctrinated. Thus as my father prayed to Jesus, I prayed to God to forgive him as he knows not what he does.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 3 by onewithhim]

Perhaps they got their lead from Paul.."For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain". That kind of language should be reserved for Jehovah alone. Paul, in effect, has made a God out of "Christ".

Even so, Jesus of Nazareth taught his disciples to focus on the Father, not on himself. EXCEPT in the Gospel of John. In that Gospel he seems to grasp, and lay claim to the glory of the Father.

EJ, I don't think Paul made a God out of Christ. All through Paul's letters he always focuses on the Father as God. He speaks as he does about Christ because the Father, God, has purposed that Jesus be our means of salvation. It's Jehovah's way to save mankind from inherited sin and death. Jehovah says: accept what my Son did and you can be saved. Paul is honoring Jehovah by accepting Jesus as his savior.

In the Gospel of John there is absolutely zero evidence that Jesus lays claim to any of the Father's glory. Would you post what passages you feel support your statement?

[onewithhim]

The Southern Baptists are encouraging this Jesus worship in my area. I was always taught to pray to God , only. Yet, I heard my own father pray to Jesus at thanksgiving 3 years ago. Its not right according to the bible or the law. Sheople are being indoctrinated. Thus as my father prayed to Jesus, I prayed to God to forgive him as he knows not what he does.

I used to be Southern Baptist. I know how rabid they are about making Jesus their God. The Father was never mentioned. It used to bother me, even as a kid. I could always see very plainly that the Father was getting a bum rap. That's what made me so interested in what JWs had to say. I said, "Finally a religion that honors the Father!"

It's encouraging to hear that you cared enough about the Father to pray to Him even though your dad was praying to Jesus.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 6 by onewithhim]

Then why doesn't Paul say "for me to live is Jehovah, and to die is gain"? Mentioning Christ in this context, and not Father Jehovah is putting Christ above the Father. Seems idolatrous. Yes, Paul pays lip service to the Father in most of his apostolic salutations, but his heart is all about "Christ". For all practical purposes, "Christ" is his God. "Christ" is Paul's everything. For Paul to live is "Christ".

"I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me".

Is Paul is admitting here to being possessed by Jesus Christ? It seems likely. Shouldn't someone who loves God be possessed by the Spirit of YHVH instead? It seems likely that this all stems from his vision on the Damascus Road. Christ should have told Paul at the time to worship the Father alone, in addition to not persecuting Christians.

I thought you said that Jesus-worship bothers you. How is "Christ" worship any different? It seems pretty obvious where Jesus-worship originated. From Paul and John, a natural consequence of their statements, and their extremely high Christology.

[Avoice]

Elijah John...
I wish Christians would listen to this much I have to say. Listen to me Christians. If you won't consider what i am about to say then nothing can help you.

Jesus told us how to tell if someone was for real. He said:

"He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
NOW JESUS TOLD YOU HOW TO TELL IF ONE IS TRUE or FALSE. HANG INTO THAT AND DON'T LET GO. HANG ON TO THAT. NOW LISTEN TO JESUS TALKING TO GOD:

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Be with him where HE IS? And just where is that? Its obviously not where the father is or he'd have said where WE are. YES.... BEHOLD HIS GLORY. All he talks about us himself.


You are on your own now folks. As i keep saying: jesus is very honest. He has given you the litmus paper to test if he is true. And how do you read the results? You cant say it huh? Your eyes see it but your heart deceives you. Eternal life...that is all Christians hear.

[Elijah John]

Elijah John...
I wish Christians would listen to this much I have to say. Listen to me Christians. If you won't consider what i am about to say then nothing can help you.

Jesus told us how to tell if someone was for real. He said:

"He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
NOW JESUS TOLD YOU HOW TO TELL IF ONE IS TRUE or FALSE. HANG INTO THAT AND DON'T LET GO. HANG ON TO THAT. NOW LISTEN TO JESUS TALKING TO GOD:

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Be with him where HE IS? And just where is that? Its obviously not where the father is or he'd have said where WE are. YES.... BEHOLD HIS GLORY. All he talks about us himself.


You are on your own now folks. As i keep saying: jesus is very honest. He has given you the litmus paper to test if he is true. And how do you read the results? You cant say it huh? Your eyes see it but your heart deceives you. Eternal life...that is all Christians hear.

I have said repeatedly on this site that John's Jesus grasps for the Glory of the Father. For himself. This in spite of Paul's assertion that Jesus "emptied himself, and didn't consider God's glory a thing to be grasped". (paraphrase) I don't see that anywhere but in John's Gospel. The most unreliable, and theologically tinged Gospel.

I doubt the real, historical Jewish Jesus talked that way. Not even the Synoptic Jesus talks that way.

Thank you Avoice, for providing the evidence, I think this is one of the passages I was thinking of.