Even if Jesus is God..

[Elijah John]

Even if Jesus is God, didn't he focus on glorifying the Father more so than himself? Didn't he teach us to focus on the Father? To pray to the Father and worship the Father alone?

If so, why do so many modern Christians pray to Jesus instead, and worship Jesus as their main focus of devotion?

[PinSeeker]

Jesus told us how to tell if someone was for real. He said:

"He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
NOW JESUS TOLD YOU HOW TO TELL IF ONE IS TRUE or FALSE. HANG INTO THAT AND DON'T LET GO. HANG ON TO THAT. NOW LISTEN TO JESUS TALKING TO GOD:

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Be with him where HE IS? And just where is that? Its obviously not where the father is or he'd have said where WE are. YES.... BEHOLD HIS GLORY. All he talks about us himself.


You are on your own now folks. As i keep saying: jesus is very honest. He has given you the litmus paper to test if he is true. And how do you read the results? You cant say it huh? Your eyes see it but your heart deceives you. Eternal life...that is all Christians hear.

So wait. Avoice. At this point, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you, but have a few questions. Do you consider yourself a Christian or not? More to follow based on your answer. Thank you in advance.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 10 by Elijah John]

It may only be documented in one gospel. And Jesus may not have said it. But if we go that route then all of his quotes can be dissected. And then what you gave left is a religion approved of by man.

But lets say Jesus didn't say it.
Does he have to admit it for this truth to ve seen?

HE TOOK GOD'S GLORY. I can see it. I can really see it in December. With twinkling lights and celebration. Jesus, jesus, Jesus. Its all about him. No holiday for the father. Hiw wouod a Christian fill in the blanks:

Praise_____
Save me_____
____ is my lord
____ is my savior
_____ loves me

NOW HOW ABOUT THIS ONE:

God_____

Hmmmm....have to think huh. Save me God? No Praise God? Maybe but in jesus' name. God is my savior? No they don't think that. God is their lord? No, not that either. God loves them? Yeah, but jesus really really loves them. They just want God to glorify Jesus. Thats all they want God for. They need God in the picture to keep from looking like pagans. Nothing more

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 10 by Elijah John]

It may only be documented in one gospel. And Jesus may not have said it. But if we go that route then all of his quotes can be dissected. And then what you gave left is a religion approved of by man.

But lets say Jesus didn't say it.
Does he have to admit it for this truth to ve seen?

HE TOOK GOD'S GLORY. I can see it. I can really see it in December. With twinkling lights and celebration. Jesus, jesus, Jesus. Its all about him. No holiday for the father. Hiw wouod a Christian fill in the blanks:

Praise_____
Save me_____
____ is my lord
____ is my savior
_____ loves me

NOW HOW ABOUT THIS ONE:

God_____

Hmmmm....have to think huh. Save me God? No Praise God? Maybe but in jesus' name. God is my savior? No they don't think that. God is their lord? No, not that either. God loves them? Yeah, but jesus really really loves them. They just want God to glorify Jesus. Thats all they want God for. They need God in the picture to keep from looking like pagans. Nothing more

Irregardless of Jesus/Joshua/Yeshua/Yehoshua, only YHVH forgives. So, extra special forgiveness was not required. Just YHVH.

[marco]

Even if Jesus is God, didn't he focus on glorifying the Father more so than himself? Didn't he teach us to focus on the Father? To pray to the Father and worship the Father alone?

If so, why do so many modern Christians pray to Jesus instead, and worship Jesus as their main focus of devotion?

Were it so simple, EJ! True, Jesus commends we pray to the Father and ask him for forgiveness but then Jesus also says "I am the way; no one comes to the Father but through me." This seems to be an invitation to go through his junior office.

If there is some element of contradiction, we must remember Jesus was very much a fallible man. Ask him about cosmology or the coelacanth and he would probably scribble in the dust. I suspect that his theology would not stand up to close examination either but the beauty of a parable is that it doesn't speak directly; and so we have as many interpretations as there are mansions in heaven.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Aaah...the heavenly voice.

Yes, the 'voice' is heard a few times in the Christian testament. It doesnt identify itself. And at the baptism it doesn't identify who its talking about. It could have been talking about John. Or others who stood by. The truth..TRUTH is you don't know whose voice you heard nor who it was talking about. That is the truth. You want it to be God talking about Jesus.

If it was God almighty and he had something he wanted us to fully understand hedcsay who he was. Just like at Sinai. It wasnt merely some 'voice' giving the law. He began with "I am the Lord thy God......"

And as far as the voice in the Christian Testament - those who heard it described it. They said it sounded like an angel and it thundered. NONE SAID IT WAS GOD. The truth is that those who heard it would have said it was God if it was God. And those who didn't hear it have the audacity to say it was God. Based on what? What they read? And whats that which is written? A voice that sounded like a loud angel. Thats what it says. So based on the Christian Testament it sounded like an angel. God is not an angel.

Why do Christians think its okay to put words in the mouth of God? Especially when all the evidence available says that it couldn't be him? Seriously,vtell me why? Why

And the 'voice' on the mountain....it says to listen to someone. It doesn't say who. SO HW DO YOU KNOW WHICH ONE TO LISTEN TO? AND DOES IT SAY LISTEN TO JESUS? Lets look:

" And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only."

Once again the voice doesn't say who its talking about . It only eludes to Jesus. They lifted up their eyes (has that heavenly sounding overtone as if looking tiwards heaven) and all they saw was Jesus. TRUE WORDS. That is the truth That is all Christians see isJesus.

Notice how the cloud covered them as it was speaking. Then they fell on their faces. But before they fell they knew Moses was there when the voice was speaking. AND THEY KNEW THEY KNEW WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT GOD SAID TO LISTEN TO MOSES. JUST LIKE YOU KNOW GOD SAID LISTEN TO MOSES.

Yet from this story you believe God doesn't want you to listen to Moses? Just how do you come to this conclusion? The voice didnt say listen to jesus. But ufvyou believevthe vouce IS God then you KNOW with certainty that God said listen to Moses. Because he said so. Nit a voice - God said it. IN FACT - THE LAST WORDS GOD HIMSELF IS CREDITED TO SPOKEN TO MANKIND IS THE FOLLOWING. ITS ON THE LAST PAGE OF THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES. We are to remember the laws God gave to Moses!

GOD SAYS:
"Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments."

God lets you choose. To either follow your heart (inventing your own instructions from him that dont exist) such as thinking this story is proof that God said to listen to Jesus. Or will they actually listen to him. Which do Christians choose? They put words in God's mouth then say he said it.

And Christians think the Jews dont worhip God in truth. But they do. Jesus christ! are they kidding?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Aaah...the heavenly voice.

Yes, the 'voice' is heard a few times in the Christian testament. It doesnt identify itself. And at the baptism it doesn't identify who its talking about. It could have been talking about John. Or others who stood by. The truth..TRUTH is you don't know whose voice you heard nor who it was talking about. That is the truth. You want it to be God talking about Jesus.

If it was God almighty and he had something he wanted us to fully understand hedcsay who he was. Just like at Sinai. It wasnt merely some 'voice' giving the law. He began with "I am the Lord thy God......"

And as far as the voice in the Christian Testament - those who heard it described it. They said it sounded like an angel and it thundered. NONE SAID IT WAS GOD. The truth is that those who heard it would have said it was God if it was God. And those who didn't hear it have the audacity to say it was God. Based on what? What they read? And whats that which is written? A voice that sounded like a loud angel. Thats what it says. So based on the Christian Testament it sounded like an angel. God is not an angel.

Why do Christians think its okay to put words in the mouth of God? Especially when all the evidence available says that it couldn't be him? Seriously,vtell me why? Why

And the 'voice' on the mountain....it says to listen to someone. It doesn't say who. SO HW DO YOU KNOW WHICH ONE TO LISTEN TO? AND DOES IT SAY LISTEN TO JESUS? Lets look:

" And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only."

Once again the voice doesn't say who its talking about . It only eludes to Jesus. They lifted up their eyes (has that heavenly sounding overtone as if looking tiwards heaven) and all they saw was Jesus. TRUE WORDS. That is the truth That is all Christians see isJesus.

Notice how the cloud covered them as it was speaking. Then they fell on their faces. But before they fell they knew Moses was there when the voice was speaking. AND THEY KNEW THEY KNEW WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT GOD SAID TO LISTEN TO MOSES. JUST LIKE YOU KNOW GOD SAID LISTEN TO MOSES.

Yet from this story you believe God doesn't want you to listen to Moses? Just how do you come to this conclusion? The voice didnt say listen to jesus. But ufvyou believevthe vouce IS God then you KNOW with certainty that God said listen to Moses. Because he said so. Nit a voice - God said it. IN FACT - THE LAST WORDS GOD HIMSELF IS CREDITED TO SPOKEN TO MANKIND IS THE FOLLOWING. ITS ON THE LAST PAGE OF THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES. We are to remember the laws God gave to Moses!

GOD SAYS:
"Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments."

God lets you choose. To either follow your heart (inventing your own instructions from him that dont exist) such as thinking this story is proof that God said to listen to Jesus. Or will they actually listen to him. Which do Christians choose? They put words in God's mouth then say he said it.

And Christians think the Jews dont worhip God in truth. But they do. Jesus christ! are they kidding?

A lot of christians believe this way, as you have shown. That belief is incorrect. The law of Moses still applies. What kind of God would give a law and say its Forever and then say it isn't? Jesus taught nothing but pure Torah without the traditions of man. He never spoke against the law. Only the traditions. Paul is the God of the people of christianity. They misquote and twist his words to be against the Torah(Peter states such in his writings). Paul , himself, claimed only to teach the law and prophets. Many should think about that fact. Would God's prophet speak against God?

Did God announce an annulment of his mariage to Isreal? Yes. He divorced them because they followed not His law. How could they come back to covenant? One of the 2 parties had to die. Enter Joshua(jesus). Jesus' death was not for atonement of sins, only God does that thing. It was to allow those who had strayed to come back. Israel. The ten tribes of the North. This act was an easy get out of jail free card. I would suggest all who believe it, accept it.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 3 by onewithhim]

Perhaps they got their lead from Paul.."For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain". That kind of language should be reserved for Jehovah alone. Paul, in effect, has made a God out of "Christ".

Even so, Jesus of Nazareth taught his disciples to focus on the Father, not on himself. EXCEPT in the Gospel of John. In that Gospel he seems to grasp, and lay claim to the glory of the Father.

EJ, every time you have posted this thought I have tried to show that John didn't make a God out of Jesus. Were my arguments worthless?

Anyway, you insist that Paul was making Jesus out to be God. What about the passage in I Corinthians chapter 15 where he says very clearly that Jesus is in subjection to God and will even hand back the Kingdom to "his God and Father",,,as I brought out in one of my posts above? Paul plainly states that he believes that YHVH, the Father, is God, and Jesus is subordinate to Him.

See also I Corinthians 8:5,6.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 17 by onewithhim]

Yes, Paul pays lip service to the Father and seems to make "Christ" subordinate. IN some verses, but consider some important other verses from the Pauline pen:

And ask yourself as you read them "do you think the way Paul talks about "Christ" is appropriate? Or should that kind of language be reserved for Jehovah alone."

"'...It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me".

How is that (in effect) not making a God out of "Christ"? In effect. How is that kind of language appropriate for a monotheist who is supposedly devoted to Father Jehovah?

Does Paul ever say anything approaching ""for me to live is Jehovah"? No, he does not. His heart is with "Christ" (judging by his words) and only nominally with the Father.

Would Paul be a Jehovah's Witness? How many times does he mention "Christ" vs "Jehovah" or the Father for that matter.

Paul is not a witness for Jehovah, he is a witness for "Christ"..

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 6 by onewithhim]

Then why doesn't Paul say "for me to live is Jehovah, and to die is gain"? Mentioning Christ in this context, and not Father Jehovah is putting Christ above the Father. Seems idolatrous. Yes, Paul pays lip service to the Father in most of his apostolic salutations, but his heart is all about "Christ". For all practical purposes, "Christ" is his God. "Christ" is Paul's everything. For Paul to live is "Christ".

"I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me".

Is Paul is admitting here to being possessed by Jesus Christ? It seems likely. Shouldn't someone who loves God be possessed by the Spirit of YHVH instead? It seems likely that this all stems from his vision on the Damascus Road. Christ should have told Paul at the time to worship the Father alone, in addition to not persecuting Christians.

I thought you said that Jesus-worship bothers you. How is "Christ" worship any different? It seems pretty obvious where Jesus-worship originated. From Paul and John, a natural consequence of their statements, and their extremely high Christology.

I don't agree that John and Paul had "extremely high Christology." I have shown very clear verses where John and Paul speak of Jesus as THE SON of God, and the Father as "the only true God." There are so many I couldn't even list them all here. They do not focus their worship on Jesus. The passages that seem to show that Jesus is God are passages that have been TAMPERED WITH by men and there is much written about that. You take the tampered verses out (e.g. John 1:1; John 8:58; Philippians 2:6; Colossians 2:9...etc) and what you have left are crystal clear statements by both John and Paul that their worship goes to the Father, and Jesus is the Son and the Messiah (OF God).

When Paul said, "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain," he was reiterating the necessity of accepting the Father's means of saving the world. The Jews weren't going for that at all, so he naturally would emphasize Jesus' role in the scheme of things. He didn't have to reiterate anything about YHVH because the nation was dedicated to Him and they supposedly accepted YHVH as the Most High. They were familiar with YHVH's position in the universe. They didn't want to admit that Jesus was sent from God, so Paul kept bringing up Jesus Christ as God's means of salvation.

[onewithhim]

Elijah John...
I wish Christians would listen to this much I have to say. Listen to me Christians. If you won't consider what i am about to say then nothing can help you.

Jesus told us how to tell if someone was for real. He said:

"He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
NOW JESUS TOLD YOU HOW TO TELL IF ONE IS TRUE or FALSE. HANG INTO THAT AND DON'T LET GO. HANG ON TO THAT. NOW LISTEN TO JESUS TALKING TO GOD:

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Be with him where HE IS? And just where is that? Its obviously not where the father is or he'd have said where WE are. YES.... BEHOLD HIS GLORY. All he talks about us himself.


You are on your own now folks. As i keep saying: jesus is very honest. He has given you the litmus paper to test if he is true. And how do you read the results? You cant say it huh? Your eyes see it but your heart deceives you. Eternal life...that is all Christians hear.

Wow. That is unfair, Avoice, because you emphasized the wrong words in Jesus' prayer to God. "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast GIVEN me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast GIVEN me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

It seems to me that Jesus was acutely aware that the Father (God) had GIVEN him everything he had. He was not glorifying himself. He said that whatever glory he had was GIVEN to him by the Father. He hoped his disciples would understand that the glory he had was a result of the Father bestowing it on him. That is not trying to place all attention on himself.

We get out of the scriptures what we want to. You see "ME" in what Jesus was saying. I see "thou hast GIVEN me."