Would any sane Jew have gone around

[Elijah John]

For debate:

1) Would any sane Jew have gone around claiming to be God?
2) Would any good Jew listen to anyone who made that claim about himself?
3) Did people listen to Jesus and take him seriously?
4) Was Jesus a good Jew, a sane Jew?
5) Did Jesus go around claiming to be God?

Please address any combination of the above.

And yes, for this particular topic, (and to stay on topic) please assume for the sake of argument that Jesus existed, and that God exists.

[Mithrae]

5) Did Jesus go around claiming to be God?
Probably not openly, but it seems he gave his disciples the impression of his divinity - if not that he is God eternal, then at least a sort of secondary begotten/created god with authority to forgive sins, command over the angels, Lordship over the seventh day of creation and (unlike angels and prophets) voicing no objection when worshiped. (Although from a foundational assumption of monotheism, a 'secondary god' view is arguably even less palatable than the trinitarianism suggested in Matthew which the church eventually adopted.)


1) Would any sane Jew have gone around claiming to be God?
No... unless he was God of course.


2) Would any good Jew listen to anyone who made that claim about himself?
I'm sure some would listen, and I don't see any necessary moral problems with them believing such a claim. We're not holding 'good Jews' to different standards of morality than good Buddhists or anyone else, are we? If you mean Torah-observant Jews, the Torah itself records multiple instances of God appearing on earth in human form (Gen. 18, Gen. 32), so while it'd be highly unusual I don't see any necessary problem there.


3) Did people listen to Jesus and take him seriously?
Apparently some did.


4) Was Jesus a good Jew, a sane Jew?
Probably fairly good, probably not strictly Torah-observant, and probably not very sane. Again, unless he actually was divine.

[William]

[Replying to post 1]

Elijah John: Would any sane Jew have gone around claiming to be God?

William: Can you give the reader any example as to what exactly is a 'sane Jew' as that would be very helpful in being able to formulate an answer to your questions about Jesus.

Elijah John: Would any good Jew listen to anyone who made that claim about himself?

William: Again. What is a 'good' Jew?

Elijah John: Did people listen to Jesus and take him seriously?

William: I think people pick and choose. What is 'listening to Jesus' anyway?

Elijah John: Was Jesus a good Jew, a sane Jew?

William: What is a 'good' and 'sane' Jew?

Elijah John: Did Jesus go around claiming to be God?

William: Some think so and others do not. Some even think he claimed that everyone was 'God'.
Apparently he said far more about his favorite subject behind closed doors, and there is no known public record of what exactly he did say about that subject, only that he said a lot...

In general, when people are arguing about Jesus, they tend to put that fact to one side - perhaps because it upsets their preferred understanding of 'who Jesus is'...and they can't get any 'good' and 'sane' argument done, if they include it.

[1213]

...
5) Did Jesus go around claiming to be God?
...

Not according to the Bible. Jesus said:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

...the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

It is sad that also many “Christians� don’t really believe what Jesus said.

[Tcg]

It is sad that also many “Christians� don’t really believe what Jesus said.

Questioning the motives of other Christians who see this issue differently than you isn't valid. I'm not under the impression that any are deliberately trying to misunderstand Jesus.

Based on the numerous threads devoted to this controversy, it is obvious that the Bible hasn't presented a clear message on this issue. Honest Christians are left to do their best to make sense of the confusion. Questioning their motives provides no resolution.


Tcg

[Divine Insight]

For debate:

And yes, for this particular topic, (and to stay on topic) please assume for the sake of argument that Jesus existed, and that God exists.

Well if we assume that there really was a God who designed and orchestrated this entire scenario then the question wouldn't be whether Jesus was a sane Jew but rather whether Jesus was a sane God.

My answer to this question is clearly, no. If some God actually designed this scenario then it's the God who is insane.

[tigger2]

Trinity Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly, visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(( Notice how the 'Christian' God is described by Christendom itself in creeds and definitions using the word 'three'! Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.))
……………………………….............

(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
……………………………….................

Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
………………………………....................

(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?

………………………………...................

(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

……………………………….................

(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[Willum]

For debate:

1) Would any sane Jew have gone around claiming to be God?

No, but Rome would have misunderstood Jewish culture enough to think it would be MORE successful.

2) Would any good Jew listen to anyone who made that claim about himself?

In the days of roving messiah, yes, they would be fascinated. They are only human.

3) Did people listen to Jesus and take him seriously?

Every one in the audience heard a different message. Gentiles would see the wisdom of worshiping Caesar and paying him his tithes, and not stoning adulterers, while the Jews would be offended by the idea of a man-god, and the idea that the Commandments could be overturned by a strawman.

4) Was Jesus a good Jew, a sane Jew?

Nah, he was probably a Roman plant. This explains Pilate's walking on eggs approach.

5) Did Jesus go around claiming to be God?

I'll leave that to the Bible.

[Zzyzx]

.

Would any sane Jew have gone around claiming to be God?

Would any sane person go around claiming to be God then or now?

Many who do so in modern times are medicated or institutionalized. Long ago they may have been more likely to be believed, particularly if they could produce some illusions (or 'miracles').

Wannabe messiahs were evidently not uncommon in biblical times.

[marco]

For debate:

1) Would any sane Jew have gone around claiming to be God?
2) Would any good Jew listen to anyone who made that claim about himself?
3) Did people listen to Jesus and take him seriously?
4) Was Jesus a good Jew, a sane Jew?

Would any sane Jew have brought down curses on their own children? In Matthew (of course) we have: "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."

1. The dangerous words "Before Abraham was, I am," coming close to blasphemy suggest Jesus saw himself as special, very special. Great minds and madness are rather close. It is sometimes hard to differentiate.


2. They would listen, get angry and make a report. The rest is bible history.

3. I should imagine the five thousand recipients of a free lunch were both impressed and happy. If we start disbelieving bits, what do we do with the rest?

4. Did the RC Church in her global splendour rise from the ravings of a madman? One is tempted to say: impossible, but we are in the land of walking dead, talking angels and shocking crucifixions. I don't think he was any less sane than modern preachers but I believe he had a gigantic image of himself, nourished by his choice of simpletons as followers. I suppose he is 50% myth and 50% pathetic. The myth does say some rather attractive things.