Here are two excerpts from the Holy Book:
1. Then Samuel said, “Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites.� Agag came to him cheerfully, for he thought, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.� But Samuel declared: “As your sword has made women childless, so your mother will be childless among women.� And Samuel hacked Agag to pieces before the LORD at Gilgal.
2. David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine's sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword.
Samuel and David are revered, apparently favourites of Yahweh. Their actions here sound savage.
Does this cast doubt on the holiness of the Bible?
Does it suggest Yahweh is in favour of savagery?
Is the Holy Book holy?
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Re: Is the Holy Book holy?
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by marco]
In another thread I tried unsuccessfully to find any instances where Yahweh was kind. Here Samuel, who serves Yahweh, hacks a living being to pieces, for God's benefit.
David, the man from whom Jesus was descended, is not content with killing his adversary. He cuts off his head.
I suspect this brutality has been learned from tales of Yahweh himself, who likes a bit of brutality.
In another thread I tried unsuccessfully to find any instances where Yahweh was kind. Here Samuel, who serves Yahweh, hacks a living being to pieces, for God's benefit.
David, the man from whom Jesus was descended, is not content with killing his adversary. He cuts off his head.
I suspect this brutality has been learned from tales of Yahweh himself, who likes a bit of brutality.
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Re: Is the Holy Book holy?
Post #3[Replying to post 1 by marco]
Is the Holy Book holy? Why include killing?
Because killing is sometimes what has to be done in the war betwwen good and evil.
Is the Holy Book holy? Why include killing?
Because killing is sometimes what has to be done in the war betwwen good and evil.
It is generally considered dishonourable to forget the battles of those that fought for the values one believes in. It is for this reason national records preserve the exploits of their warriors. So each generation does not forget how the came to enjoy the freedom to criticise those that fought and killed in wartime.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.�― Edmund Burke
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:52 am, edited 4 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Is the Holy Book holy?
Post #4Killing is what is done by one culture seeking to dominate and destroy another. Those performing the destruction claim it is good. Those being destroyed claim it is evil.JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by marco]
Because killing is sometime what has to be done in the war betwwen good and evil.
Those wishing to justify their destructive nature invent a God that favors them over those they destroy. They then claim this as their justification for calling evil, good.
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Re: Is the Holy Book holy?
Post #5By all means compose your own OP and answer it. Of course "killing" is done in war. But morality is not thrown out, even in war, unless one is advocating savagery. The question was not about warfare but about brutal killing; hacking a prisoner to death.JehovahsWitness wrote:
Is the Holy Book holy? Why include killing?
Because killing is sometimes what has to be done in the war betwwen good and evil.
Wonderful advice and irrelevant to the OP. I wasn't asking about necessary war or stamping out evil. The examples I gave were of brutality, carried out by those with divine favour. That places a question mark over the book. Had any of these old soldiers in the nice photo hacked a prisoner to death, they would have been punished, not extolled in a book as good.“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.�― Edmund Burke
So if the OP had been : Is war ever justified? your answers would have been good. The question was about brutality. Your interesting answers may come in handy in another thread. Thanks all the same.
Re: Is the Holy Book holy?
Post #6Tcg wrote:Killing is what is done by one culture seeking to dominate and destroy another. Those performing the destruction claim it is good. Those being destroyed claim it is evil.JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by marco]
Because killing is sometime what has to be done in the war betwwen good and evil.
Those wishing to justify their destructive nature invent a God that favors them over those they destroy. They then claim this as their justification for calling evil, good.
Obviously we expect barbarians to act as barbarians. Placing God side by side with brutality is the problem. I imagine that if a British officer had summoned a prisoner and as he stood in front of him, hacked him to death, he would be imprisoned.
In Roman mythology Samuel would be a demi-god, a hero; in Christian lore he's a prophet who hacks unarmed people to death. Some book!
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Re: Is the Holy Book holy?
Post #7[Replying to post 1 by marco]
This is not the view of the Bible. The Bible views man as carnal and bent on sin. So which does observation reveal to be true. What would happen in the cities if all law enforcement ceased? This does not seem to be to hard to imagine.
It is because of this view of man, God instituted government as a way to control the carnal or sinful man. Accordingly God instituted the most severe punishment for the most severe crimes, or crimes that indicated a heart that was never going to choose righteousness. To protect the those that choose righteousness.
Nope just simply a different view of the natural state of man. From your comments you seem to be coming from a humanistic view of man i.e. that man is basically good.Does this cast doubt on the holiness of the Bible?
Does it suggest Yahweh is in favour of savagery?
This is not the view of the Bible. The Bible views man as carnal and bent on sin. So which does observation reveal to be true. What would happen in the cities if all law enforcement ceased? This does not seem to be to hard to imagine.
It is because of this view of man, God instituted government as a way to control the carnal or sinful man. Accordingly God instituted the most severe punishment for the most severe crimes, or crimes that indicated a heart that was never going to choose righteousness. To protect the those that choose righteousness.
Re: Is the Holy Book holy?
Post #8EarthScienceguy wrote:
It is because of this view of man, God instituted government as a way to control the carnal or sinful man. Accordingly God instituted the most severe punishment for the most severe crimes, or crimes that indicated a heart that was never going to choose righteousness. To protect the those that choose righteousness.
This is interesting news. Wellington suggested that the British Constitution was the most marvellously perfect system devised by the wit of man. I don't think God was involved. It is possible God dropped in as Hammurabi was creating his code but there's no evidence of it.
If as the Bible indicates it was God's legal arrangement for people to be hacked to death then we must be thankful we changed God's horrible legislation. Of course God wanted homosexuals to be destroyed, as well as witches and promiscuous girls and again, except in God's own countries, we ignore such nonsense.
So your reply would seem to suggest the way of God's law is brutality, but in fact we have moved on.
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Re: Is the Holy Book holy?
Post #9[Replying to post 8 by marco]
So you do understand the consequences of sin, that was the intent of the strict enforcement of the law in the Old Testament. The Old Testament law is the school master to teach men the consequences of sin. The New Testament shows us the grace that God grants via belief in Jesus. Without strict enforcement of the law in the old testament you would never understand the consequences of sin the way that you do.This is interesting news. Wellington suggested that the British Constitution was the most marvellously perfect system devised by the wit of man. I don't think God was involved. It is possible God dropped in as Hammurabi was creating his code but there's no evidence of it.
If as the Bible indicates it was God's legal arrangement for people to be hacked to death then we must be thankful we changed God's horrible legislation. Of course God wanted homosexuals to be destroyed, as well as witches and promiscuous girls and again, except in God's own countries, we ignore such nonsense.
So your reply would seem to suggest the way of God's law is brutality, but in fact we have moved on.
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Re: Is the Holy Book holy?
Post #10For me, that Bible tells things honestly, even if they are not pretty, makes it more credible. But what do you mean with “holy�? If it means “dedicated to God�, as I have understood, I am not sure about that. I think Bible is dedicated for people as a lesson so that they could learn to understand what is good and right.marco wrote: ...
Does this cast doubt on the holiness of the Bible?..