First principles

[Danmark]

Descartes famously asked 'What do we know? How do we know it?'
He started with 'cogito ergo sum,' I think therefore I am.
How do we know anything?

All religions start from the premise that a member of their tribe was told by a god that this is the truth, that there is a god. Thousands of cultures have come up with a god that is the god. How does one determine which god is true? How does one determine if there is a god?

The proposition for debate is that if there really is one true god, a real god, would not he/she/it communicate this truth to all people? Presuming a universal creator god who wants us to believe 'him/her/it' exists, wouldn't that god communicate this truth directly to all people, all cultures? Why would this god rely on a single tribe, sect, or person to present this truth to all people?

[bjs]

The proposition for debate is that if there really is one true god, a real god, would not he/she/it communicate this truth to all people? Presuming a universal creator god who wants us to believe 'him/her/it' exists, wouldn't that god communicate this truth directly to all people, all cultures? Why would this god rely on a single tribe, sect, or person to present this truth to all people?

This would appear to argue in favor of what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1:20. “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.�

[Avoice]

ONLY THE GOD OF ISRAEL HAS DECLARED PROPHECIES WHICH HAVE COME TRUE. ALL ONE HAS TO DO IS LOOK TO THE JEWS / ISRAEL TO KNOW WHO IS GOD AND WHO UPHOLDS HIS TORAH TO THE NATIONS.

GOOD READING BELOW. The first Christians were Jews. And those Jews failed. They failed to teach their sons and their son's sons the statutes abd judgements. Instead they did what they were told not to do: Make God into the likeness of a man.

Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female.....Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons...

God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.[/i]

[marco]

Presuming a universal creator god who wants us to believe 'him/her/it' exists, wouldn't that god communicate this truth directly to all people, all cultures? Why would this god rely on a single tribe, sect, or person to present this truth to all people?

If a lecturer attempts to impart information but leaves many of his students in doubt as to his meaning, he is a bad lecturer. If God's intention is to identify himself, then the appearance of a symmetrical snowflake or the regular motion of the stars does not do it convincingly. It provides food for thought.

Yahweh of course is an absurdity, an insult to human reason. It is hard to find anything at all that can be extracted from Yahweh tales that would provide us with meaning in our lives. We are better off with Euclid's geometry.

If God's intention is to make the world atheistic, he is on the right path, but still has a long way to go.

[Divine Insight]

This would appear to argue in favor of what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1:20. “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.�

But how would that help Hebrew mythology?

Even if we accept Paul's view on this, his idea would apply to every possible concept of a God.

This should actually be a very serious problem for Christians. If we are going to assume that the existence of the universe and everything in it is evidence for the existence of a God, then this argument could be used to support all known religions. From the Odin, to Thor, to Zeus, to the Moon Goddess of Wicca, to Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, etc.

This argument supports the Gods of the Incas, the Aztecs, the American Indians, and on and on.

Not only this, but even within the Abrahamic religions Paul's idea would necessarily apply to all facets of the Abrahamic religions. Paul could then be accused of being "without excuse" for not having embraced some other religion.

Paul's argument simply doesn't work. The fallacy of his argument is crystal clear. This should be highly problematic for Christians. Especially if they are under the belief that God somehow inspired Paul to say such a ridiculous thing.

Surely the God would be bright enough to know that this isn't going to stand up as an argument for the validity of any particular religion.

[Divine Insight]

ONLY THE GOD OF ISRAEL HAS DECLARED PROPHECIES WHICH HAVE COME TRUE.

This is simply not true. Other cultures have stories of their Gods supposedly making prophecies that later came true as well.

If you think the myths of the God of Israel are unique in this regard you really need to go study other religions.

[marco]

This would appear to argue in favor of what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1:20. “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.�

Paul was no Pythagoras. Using his rule we can hear thunder and deduce a god. Eliot, often as tedious as Paul, wrote :

"Between the idea and the reality
Between the motion and the act
Falls the Shadow. For Thine is the Kingdom."

This is a bit more enigmatic than Paul's simplistic observation and has the merit of getting us to think. Paul does not require us to think: we believe, and then miraculously we see stars, planets, oceans, continents as God's signature.
If people who gave mankind its progress thought like this we would still be living in caves, offering a bit of meat to the Sun.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 2 by bjs]

He did. To the entire nation of Israel. No other religion on the face of the planet can ckaim a national revelation. Other religions started with one person or a small group of people.

The event at Mt Sinai was so grand that Christianity would never have got off the ground unless they glued their book to ours. But they want nothing to do with the God of Israel. They just pretend that he endorses Jesus. They have convinced themself of ut it. If forced to tell the TRUTH they coukdbt do it. Why? Because God doesn't even speak in the Christian testament. No direct quote from him exists. Unless they happen to quite the Hebrew Scriptures. AND THEN THEY MISQUOTE HIM AND STEAL HIS WORDS AND INSERT THEIR OWN. THERE IS NO OTHER CRIME WORSE THAN STEALING GOD'S WORDS.

What they have is some unidentified 'voice from heaven' talking about unidentufied person.
So they invent who is talking and who the voice is talking about. They say it is God talking sbout Jesus God didn't say it was him. At Sinai God clearly identified himself 'I am the Lord thy God....' A voice..an unidentufied voice they obey. They abandoned the voice that clearly tells them it is their God. The God that speaks openly and clearly in the Hebrew scriptures to follow some unidentified voice. OMG

[Danmark]

Avoice and bjs appear to miss the point. Anyone can claim to speak for god and say "his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen" or that "prophesies proclaim...."
The question remains, 'How do we know this person or that person speaks with authority and has been sent by the one true God?'

[SallyF]

Descartes famously asked 'What do we know? How do we know it?'
He started with 'cogito ergo sum,' I think therefore I am.
How do we know anything?

All religions start from the premise that a member of their tribe was told by a god that this is the truth, that there is a god. Thousands of cultures have come up with a god that is the god. How does one determine which god is true? How does one determine if there is a god?

The proposition for debate is that if there really is one true god, a real god, would not he/she/it communicate this truth to all people? Presuming a universal creator god who wants us to believe 'him/her/it' exists, wouldn't that god communicate this truth directly to all people, all cultures? Why would this god rely on a single tribe, sect, or person to present this truth to all people?

Well yes …

IF there was One True God, it would understand the difficulties of poor communication, and would not rely on "inspired" humans to write it's history and commandments.

I suggest that the simple, single reason that NO version of "God" communicates directly to ALL cultures …

Is that ALL versions of "God" are just imaginary.

But my door is still WIDE open.