Is the Resurrection a fictional story?

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polonius
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Is the Resurrection a fictional story?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

Jesus was crucified by the Romans in Jerusalem in about 32 AD. According to Luke, Jesus spend 40 days on earth and then ascended into heaven. (This story was added to Mark's gospel in the second century).

The first to write of Jesus' Resurrection was Paul in his 1 Corinthians. It's a letter written to Corinth (about 800 miles from Jerusalem) about 20 years after the fact although Paul was not in the West when it was is supposed to have occurred. The writers of the gospels did not include this story in any of the Gospels.

Is it believable that a man who had been "raised" from the dead was walking around for 40 days and people of that area didn't know about it?

Or is just a bible fiction?

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Re: Is the Resurrection a fictional story?

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Post by Divine Insight »

polonius wrote: Jesus was crucified by the Romans in Jerusalem in about 32 AD.
Actually according to the Gospel rumors he was not crucified by the Romans. According to the Gospel rumors Pontius Pilate exonerated Jesus of any wrong doing. He washed his hands of the entire affair and told the Jewish Chief priests to see to it if that's what they wanted to do.
polonius wrote: Is it believable that a man who had been "raised" from the dead was walking around for 40 days and people of that area didn't know about it?
Even back then I would think that most rational people would simply conclude that he never actually died and simply survived the mob execution. Why would they assume otherwise? After all, the story of the Gospels had not even been written yet, so no one would be aware of anyone claiming that Jesus was the Son of God or anything like that. There is nothing in their original religion that foretold of any such things. To the contrary, the original religion told of the coming of a Messiah who was supposed to become the King of Israel and lead the entire world and all nations to peace. Jesus certainly didn't do that. He didn't even become King much less fulfill any of the other original prophesies of the Messiah that the original religion had prophesied about.

So there would be no reason for anyoneto think that some guy surviving a crucifixion would represent anything special.
polonius wrote: Or is just a bible fiction?
Fiction yes. But not necessarily entirely fabricated from scratch. There most like were rumors floating around of a "resurrection". And it was those rumors that grew into a religious theology. In fact, some of the authors of the new testament gospels probably did believe in these rumors. So for them it wasn't fiction at all. As far as they were concerned it actually happened. Unfortunately it's human nature to exaggerate, fabricate, and even outright lie to support rumors that a person has embraced as truth.

This is well-known human nature. Nothing out of the ordinary there.

Religious people tend to be particularly passionate about supporting stories they would like to believe are true. And even psychologists have shown how people will make up totally fabricated things to support what they would like to believe, and unfortunately they even convince themselves that their own fabrications are true. So from there perspective they are indeed telling the truth, simply because they have convinced themselves that their own fabrications are true.

This is proven human nature. So it's not unexpected or surprising.
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Re: Is the Resurrection a fictional story?

Post #3

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 1 by polonius]
Jesus was crucified by the Romans in Jerusalem in about 32 AD.

Is the Resurrection a fictional story?
No, it is not a fictional story.

Far from it.

It is a unique key part in the unique story of a unique person.

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Re: Is the Resurrection a fictional story?

Post #4

Post by polonius »

[Replying to post 3 by Checkpoint]

About the "Resurrection" first claimed in 52 AD by the "Apostle" Paul.

So for 20 years following Jesus' execution, nothing was written about it.

A "story" not necessarily historical fact. Right?

And when was it first claimed that Jesus as divine? Was the claim believed?

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Re: Is the Resurrection a fictional story?

Post #5

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 1 by polonius]

There were hundreds of people who saw him after his resurrection.

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Re: Is the Resurrection a fictional story?

Post #6

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 4 by polonius]

By "divine" I suppose you mean "God." (Actually it means "OF God," or "a god," "holy, sacred." Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language. Even the angels are "divine.")

But I think you are asking when Jesus was beginning to be referred to as "God." The Great Apostasy had started toward the end of the first century. John wrote about it in his letters, saying that this "anti-christ" attitude was already stirring up trouble. (I John 2:18,19)

Paul wrote even earlier about "wolves" that would enter the congregation and mislead some of the faithful. "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." (Acts 20:29,30)

This blasphemy that Christ was God started even back then, before all the Apostles had died, and then when John, the last, had died, the lid was off Pandora's Box. In the second century we start seeing subtle references to Jesus as God, and it gets more blatant as time went on.

The Catholic Church itself has admitted that the doctrine of the Trinity gradually took shape until its full acceptance by the church in the fourth century.


You ask if the claim was believed. I would say that the true followers of Christ, which remained relatively few (Matthew 7:13,14), did not believe it, but many did. Just like today. The majority of self-proclaimed Christians will say they think Jesus is God, and no amount of evidence to the contrary interests them.

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Post #7

Post by polonius »

Divine Insight tells us that:

polonius wrote:

Jesus was crucified by the Romans in Jerusalem in about 32 AD.


[quote] Actually according to the Gospel rumors he was not crucified by the Romans. According to the Gospel rumors Pontius Pilate exonerated Jesus of any wrong doing. He washed his hands of the entire affair and told the Jewish Chief priests to see to it if that's what they wanted to do. [quote]

RESPONSE: Evidence please. Only Roman authority could proscribe the death penalty.

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How is the Resurrection as historical event established?

Post #8

Post by polonius »

Checkpoint claims:

[Replying to post 1 by polonius]


[quote]Jesus was crucified by the Romans in Jerusalem in about 32 AD.
Is the Resurrection a fictional story?[quote]


No, it is not a fictional story.

Far from it.

It is a unique key part in the unique story of a unique person.

REPLY: But no witnesses reported that a crucified man had been raised from the dead. A story was told by Paul (but only to those living 800 miles away who wouldn't have witnessed the event), and none of claimed 500 witnesses recorded anything nor those they would have told. Even the Roman soldiers did not report the event to Pilate. Is that what we should believe?

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Re: Is the Resurrection a fictional story?

Post #9

Post by brunumb »

onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 1 by polonius]

There were hundreds of people who saw him after his resurrection.
What we actually have are unsupported claims that hundreds of people saw him after his resurrection.
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Post #10

Post by Divine Insight »

polonius wrote: Divine Insight tells us that:

polonius wrote:

Jesus was crucified by the Romans in Jerusalem in about 32 AD.

Actually according to the Gospel rumors he was not crucified by the Romans. According to the Gospel rumors Pontius Pilate exonerated Jesus of any wrong doing. He washed his hands of the entire affair and told the Jewish Chief priests to see to it if that's what they wanted to do.
RESPONSE: Evidence please. Only Roman authority could proscribe the death penalty.
The Gospel rumors are their own evidence:

Luke.23
[4] Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.
[14] Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:


John.18[38] Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

John.19
[4] Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.
[6] When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.

Matt.27[24] When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

The Gospel rumors themselves make it crystal clear that the Roman authority exonerated Jesus of any wrong doing. He even washed his hands of the whole affair and said to the Jewish Chief Priests "Ye see to it".

You say:
polonius wrote: Only Roman authority could proscribe the death penalty.
Not necessarily. The Roman authority could (and according to the Gospel rumors did) give the Jewish Chief Priest permission to crucify Jesus. It most definitely was not a formal Roman Crucifixion.

But you're right about one thing. The Jews were under Roman occupation at the time and probably weren't allowed to do this without oversight. So Pilate apparently assigned a few Roman soldiers to do as the Jewish Priests request. Most likely they weren't his best soldiers either. More likely a few rookies.

And so it's highly likely that this mob-inspired crucifixion was extremely unofficial and most likely botched badly.

The idea that this was a formal Roman crucifixion being overseen by Roman authorities simply doesn't match up with the Gospel rumors.

So no, according to the Gospels Jesus was definitely not crucified by the Roman. Although there could have been a few rookie Roman soldiers involved simply because the Jews were under occupation and not permitted to carry this out entirely on their own.

But no, even Gospel rumors have Pontius Pilate exonerating Jesus of any wrongdoing. So Jesus was not officially crucified by the Romans.

In fact, many Jews object to these Gospel rumors precisely because of this. They claim that the Jewish Priests of that time would have never called for a crucifixion of participated in it. But the Gospel rumors demand that this is precisely what they did.

I don't know what the Jews were like back in those days. Most likely they weren't anything at all like modern day Jews. After all, let's not forget that back in those days they were still stoning people to death for various sins like adultery and blaspheme. Modern day Jews would reject those religious practices as well.

The Jews of Jesus day were nothing at all like modern day Jews. So they may very well have been willing to have Jesus crucified for blaspheme. After all, is there really all that much difference between stoning someone to death and crucifying them? It's a brutal way to kill someone either way. But they clearly had no problem stoning people to death. According to the Gospel rumors they had previously picked up stone to stone Jesus to death, but apparently Jesus was able to run away before they could catch him.

So the Jews of that time were quite brutal and ruthless.

But to address your concern for evidence that the Romans didn't crucify Jesus all you need to do is read the Gospel rumors themselves. They make it crystal clear that Pilate found not fault in Jesus and washed his hands of the whole affair. So it most definitely was not an official Roman crucifixion. Apparently it was a make-shift mob crucifixion. And was most likely botched which explains how Jesus could have survived the whole ordeal and why people might have seen him alive after this event.
onewithhim wrote: There were hundreds of people who saw him after his resurrection.
Even if true that wouldn't mean anything. All that would suggest is that Jesus simply survived a botched crucifixion. There's no evidence that he had ever actually died.

So you need to be very wary of arguments based on the idea that Jesus might have been seen after this crucifixion event. Especially if Jesus was still wounded. Surely if a God had resurrected Jesus he would have restored his body to pristine condition in the process. But the Gospel rumors have Jesus suffering from the wounds that had supposedly killed him. That suggests that he simply survived a botched mob crucifixion. So even if a lot of people saw Jesus after the crucifixion that wouldn't be evidence for anything other than the fact that he simply didn't die. Period.

Nothing to get excited about there.
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