Christmas - Would Jesus Celebrate it?

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Christmas - Would Jesus Celebrate it?

Post #1

Post by 2timothy316 »

It cannot be denied that there are some good behaviors that Christmas is supposed and many times does stir in people. Loving, giving and helping the less fortunate.

While there is nothing against these things in the Bible, in fact these things are highly encouraged. Still, there are many things in Christmas that it is widely known are not scriptural, but quite pagan.

For debate, if Christmas was around during Jesus' day would he have taken part in it?

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brianbbs67 wrote: To post one, Jesus would have never, ever ,ever, celebrated anything other than the Feasts and holy days of God. There are 3 feasts and 7 holy days. Question to all here, what non Mosaic celebration did he and the rest of Judah participate in that the bible documents?
Brian, I'm quoting you here, but this is not necessarily directed at you. Anyway:

Oh, I think it's quite reasonable to think that the Jews of the day all commemorated life events, like birthdays and anniversaries and such. Maybe not in the same ways we do today, but yeah. I mean, good grief; why is that so offensive to some to even think about?

Come on. It's not "required" for even Christians to "celebrate Christmas." It's just part of the church calendar, which is a mnemonic device that helps us to remember and celebrate and worship God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) throughout the year. As Christians, Christ's first coming, life on earth, crucifixion and resurrection, His constant intercession on our behalf now, and His anticipated second coming should all be celebrated without ceasing throughout the year.

Wow. The things people get all hung up on here. Just... wow.

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Post #22

Post by bjs »

2timothy316 wrote:
bjs wrote:
I will point out that most modern Christmas traditions don’t have pagan origins.
From the Encyclopedia Britannica.
"The earlier term Yule may have derived from the Germanic j�l or the Anglo-Saxon ge�l, which referred to the feast of the winter solstice."
From History.com
"In Scandinavia, the Norse celebrated Yule from December 21, the winter solstice, through January. In recognition of the return of the sun, fathers and sons would bring home large logs, which they would set on fire. The people would feast until the log burned out, which could take as many as 12 days. The Norse believed that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year.

The end of December was a perfect time for celebration in most areas of Europe. At that time of year, most cattle were slaughtered so they would not have to be fed during the winter. For many, it was the only time of year when they had a supply of fresh meat. In addition, most wine and beer made during the year was finally fermented and ready for drinking.

In Germany, people honored the pagan god Oden during the mid-winter holiday. Germans were terrified of Oden, as they believed he made nocturnal flights through the sky to observe his people, and then decide who would prosper or perish. Because of his presence, many people chose to stay inside."

Saturnalia

In Rome, where winters were not as harsh as those in the far north, Saturnalia—a holiday in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture—was celebrated. Beginning in the week leading up to the winter solstice and continuing for a full month, Saturnalia was a hedonistic time, when food and drink were plentiful and the normal Roman social order was turned upside down. For a month, slaves would become masters. Peasants were in command of the city. Business and schools were closed so that everyone could join in the fun.

Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra’s birthday was the most sacred day of the year.

Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon, farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs.
Pagan from the beginning. The 'yule log' was pagan, so is decorating with evergreen plants,
When I wrote “modern Christian traditions� I should have included the word “American.� That is my fault. I can’t speak for every culture around the world. They yule log does have pagan origins, but the tradition is essentially dead in America. It is no longer popular even in the northern European nations where it started.

As I already mentioned, many cultures decorated with evergreen plants, but the specific Christmas tree tradition was started by Christians in the 1600’s.

https://realchristmastrees.org/dnn/Educ ... tmas-Trees

https://www.history.com/topics/christma ... tmas-trees


2timothy316 wrote: and even the date is pagan.
The idea that Jesus was born on December 25 was popularized by Sextus Julius Africanus in his Chronographiai, a reference book for Christians written in AD 221.

It is difficult to nail down when people started celebrating Saturnalia on December 25th. During the days of Lucian of Samosata (125 – after 180 AD) Saturnalia was still a two-day festival held on the 19th of December. By the start of the fourth century it had expanded into a week-long festival ending on the 25th.

These dates make it nearly impossible for Christmas to be placed on December 25 because of Saturnalia.

Celebrations of Mithra came even later.

Celebrations of Mithra were introduced to Rome through the worship of Sol Invictus (the unconquerable sun), and inscriptions on various works of art suggest the worshipers at the time believed these two were the manifestation of the same God.

The Roman Emperor Aurelian gave the worship of Sol Invictus official status in 274 AD. However, the earliest mention of Sol Invictus (and therefore Mithra) being born on December 25 comes the calligrapher and illuminator Furius Dionysius Filocalus in his work the Chronography of 354, which as the name suggests was written in 354 AD. Celebrating Christmas on December 25th predates this by more than a century.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bjs wrote: ... Birthdays had been commonly celebrated for thousands of years before Jesus. As I said, we can’t be certain but it is likely that Jesus celebrated his birthday and the birthdays of his friends and family. Obviously without modern traditions, but still a celebration of some kind.
The problem is thousands of years of Jewish customs are presented in detail in their scripture with no mention of annual celebrations of the day of ones birth. While we have Jews gathering to name a baby (and share in the happiness of a new life), gathering to mourn the death of a loved one and of course marriage celebrations, there is no Jewish tradition of birthdays. Thus if they did adopt the annual celebration of ones birth by the first century when Jesus was in earth, they would have done so from their pagan neighbours. Not a problem, except in gerneral ALL ancient celebrations or festivals that were religious rites to the gods. There were no "secular" none religious celebrations disconnected to the gods.

Would this not have been problematic for Jesus?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #24

Post by 2timothy316 »

bjs wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
bjs wrote:
I will point out that most modern Christmas traditions don’t have pagan origins.
From the Encyclopedia Britannica.
"The earlier term Yule may have derived from the Germanic j�l or the Anglo-Saxon ge�l, which referred to the feast of the winter solstice."
From History.com
"In Scandinavia, the Norse celebrated Yule from December 21, the winter solstice, through January. In recognition of the return of the sun, fathers and sons would bring home large logs, which they would set on fire. The people would feast until the log burned out, which could take as many as 12 days. The Norse believed that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year.

The end of December was a perfect time for celebration in most areas of Europe. At that time of year, most cattle were slaughtered so they would not have to be fed during the winter. For many, it was the only time of year when they had a supply of fresh meat. In addition, most wine and beer made during the year was finally fermented and ready for drinking.

In Germany, people honored the pagan god Oden during the mid-winter holiday. Germans were terrified of Oden, as they believed he made nocturnal flights through the sky to observe his people, and then decide who would prosper or perish. Because of his presence, many people chose to stay inside."

Saturnalia

In Rome, where winters were not as harsh as those in the far north, Saturnalia—a holiday in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture—was celebrated. Beginning in the week leading up to the winter solstice and continuing for a full month, Saturnalia was a hedonistic time, when food and drink were plentiful and the normal Roman social order was turned upside down. For a month, slaves would become masters. Peasants were in command of the city. Business and schools were closed so that everyone could join in the fun.

Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra’s birthday was the most sacred day of the year.

Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon, farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs.
Pagan from the beginning. The 'yule log' was pagan, so is decorating with evergreen plants,
When I wrote “modern Christian traditions� I should have included the word “American.� That is my fault. I can’t speak for every culture around the world. They yule log does have pagan origins, but the tradition is essentially dead in America. It is no longer popular even in the northern European nations where it started.
Yet would Jesus celebrate something because of it's popularity? Should we? Should we adopt other religion's paraphernalia into our worship regardless of the nation it came from?

Do we have a Biblical example of paraphernalia from other cultures and religions trying to enter into worship of Jehovah? We do and Jesus would have known about it as well.

Exodus 32:1-5, Arron made a golden calf and then declared that the next day would be a "Festival to Jehovah". Calf worship was huge in Egypt and it was not just Hebrews that came out of Egypt, but many Egyptians as well. Apparently they brought their Hapi worship with them.

Was that acceptable to Jehovah, to being in foreign worshiping implements? I mean it was still a festival in His name right?

Exodus 32:7-10 tells us the answer, "Jehovah now said to Moses: “Go, descend, because your people, whom you led up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. They have quickly deviated from the way I commanded them to go. They have made for themselves a statue of a calf, and they keep bowing down to it and sacrificing to it and saying, ‘This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt.’� Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I have seen that this is an obstinate* people. So now let me be, and I will exterminate them in my burning anger, and let me make a great nation from you instead.�

So, if Jehovah was ready to wipe out the entire nation of Hebrews for one cultural, religious piece of paraphernalia in worship to Him. How would He feel about 2 or 10 from all over the place?

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Post #25

Post by 2timothy316 »

bjs wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: and even the date is pagan.
The idea that Jesus was born on December 25 was popularized by Sextus Julius Africanus in his Chronographiai, a reference book for Christians written in AD 221.

It is difficult to nail down when people started celebrating Saturnalia on December 25th. During the days of Lucian of Samosata (125 – after 180 AD) Saturnalia was still a two-day festival held on the 19th of December. By the start of the fourth century it had expanded into a week-long festival ending on the 25th.

These dates make it nearly impossible for Christmas to be placed on December 25 because of Saturnalia.

Celebrations of Mithra came even later.

Celebrations of Mithra were introduced to Rome through the worship of Sol Invictus (the unconquerable sun), and inscriptions on various works of art suggest the worshipers at the time believed these two were the manifestation of the same God.

The Roman Emperor Aurelian gave the worship of Sol Invictus official status in 274 AD. However, the earliest mention of Sol Invictus (and therefore Mithra) being born on December 25 comes the calligrapher and illuminator Furius Dionysius Filocalus in his work the Chronography of 354, which as the name suggests was written in 354 AD. Celebrating Christmas on December 25th predates this by more than a century.
So you're saying they didn't throw a dart into a calendar to make their decision on the date. There was rhyme and reason to the date. History.com says the reason for the date so, "That way, it became easier to convince Rome’s pagan subjects to accept Christianity as the empire’s official religion." So if we put the evidence on scales, would the pointer point on the origin of the date of Christmas be more pagan or legitimate worship? In light of Exodus chapter 32, can a mix of pagan worship and Jehovah sanctioned worship ever be acceptable to God?

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Post #26

Post by bjs »

2timothy316 wrote:
bjs wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
bjs wrote:
I will point out that most modern Christmas traditions don’t have pagan origins.
From the Encyclopedia Britannica.
"The earlier term Yule may have derived from the Germanic j�l or the Anglo-Saxon ge�l, which referred to the feast of the winter solstice."
From History.com
"In Scandinavia, the Norse celebrated Yule from December 21, the winter solstice, through January. In recognition of the return of the sun, fathers and sons would bring home large logs, which they would set on fire. The people would feast until the log burned out, which could take as many as 12 days. The Norse believed that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year.

The end of December was a perfect time for celebration in most areas of Europe. At that time of year, most cattle were slaughtered so they would not have to be fed during the winter. For many, it was the only time of year when they had a supply of fresh meat. In addition, most wine and beer made during the year was finally fermented and ready for drinking.

In Germany, people honored the pagan god Oden during the mid-winter holiday. Germans were terrified of Oden, as they believed he made nocturnal flights through the sky to observe his people, and then decide who would prosper or perish. Because of his presence, many people chose to stay inside."

Saturnalia

In Rome, where winters were not as harsh as those in the far north, Saturnalia—a holiday in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture—was celebrated. Beginning in the week leading up to the winter solstice and continuing for a full month, Saturnalia was a hedonistic time, when food and drink were plentiful and the normal Roman social order was turned upside down. For a month, slaves would become masters. Peasants were in command of the city. Business and schools were closed so that everyone could join in the fun.

Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra’s birthday was the most sacred day of the year.

Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon, farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs.
Pagan from the beginning. The 'yule log' was pagan, so is decorating with evergreen plants,
When I wrote “modern Christian traditions� I should have included the word “American.� That is my fault. I can’t speak for every culture around the world. They yule log does have pagan origins, but the tradition is essentially dead in America. It is no longer popular even in the northern European nations where it started.
Yet would Jesus celebrate something because of it's popularity? Should we? Should we adopt other religion's paraphernalia into our worship regardless of the nation it came from?
I didn’t say Jesus would do something because it is popular. I said that the popular Christmas traditions are not rooted in paganism. Listing an unpopular tradition that is rooted in paganism is not a counter to my argument.

2timothy316 wrote: Exodus 32:1-5, Arron made a golden calf and then declared that the next day would be a "Festival to Jehovah". Calf worship was huge in Egypt and it was not just Hebrews that came out of Egypt, but many Egyptians as well. Apparently they brought their Hapi worship with them.

Was that acceptable to Jehovah, to being in foreign worshiping implements? I mean it was still a festival in His name right?
I think most rational people understand the difference between idolatry and a birthday celebration.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Post #27

Post by bjs »

2timothy316 wrote: So you're saying they didn't throw a dart into a calendar to make their decision on the date. There was rhyme and reason to the date.
The earliest writes argued that Jesus was conceived during the Passover, which is why they placed the date of his birth when they did. I’m not saying that their reasoning is accurate, but it was not based in paganism.
2timothy316 wrote: History.com says the reason for the date so, "That way, it became easier to convince Rome’s pagan subjects to accept Christianity as the empire’s official religion."
This seems to be a search for controversy at the expense of accuracy. I looked on History.com, and the most notable mistake I found was they claimed that Christmas was celebrated on December 25 by the fourth century, when in reality that date had been set a century earlier.
2timothy316 wrote: So if we put the evidence on scales, would the pointer point on the origin of the date of Christmas be more pagan or legitimate worship?
The date? Unquestionably legitimate worship; or at least the people who set that date believed so. All available evidence says that they proclaimed a date that was not a pagan holiday when they said it.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Post #28

Post by 2timothy316 »

bjs wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: So you're saying they didn't throw a dart into a calendar to make their decision on the date. There was rhyme and reason to the date.
The earliest writes argued that Jesus was conceived during the Passover, which is why they placed the date of his birth when they did. I’m not saying that their reasoning is accurate, but it was not based in paganism.
2timothy316 wrote: History.com says the reason for the date so, "That way, it became easier to convince Rome’s pagan subjects to accept Christianity as the empire’s official religion."
This seems to be a search for controversy at the expense of accuracy. I looked on History.com, and the most notable mistake I found was they claimed that Christmas was celebrated on December 25 by the fourth century, when in reality that date had been set a century earlier.
2timothy316 wrote: So if we put the evidence on scales, would the pointer point on the origin of the date of Christmas be more pagan or legitimate worship?
The date? Unquestionably legitimate worship; or at least the people who set that date believed so. All available evidence says that they proclaimed a date that was not a pagan holiday when they said it.
Wow! Unquestionably? To those that don't believe the Bible is the Word of God I guess.

All evidence says that December 25th was so that. "it became easier to convince Rome’s pagan subjects to accept Christianity as the empire’s official religion."

The church changing their beliefs to fit pagan worship, rather than the other way around. If you see that as good well then just...wow.

"You must not follow after other gods, any gods of the peoples who are all around you, for Jehovah your God who is in your midst is a God who requires exclusive devotion. Otherwise, the anger of Jehovah your God will blaze against you and he will annihilate you from the face of the earth." - Deuteronomy 6:14, 15

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Post #29

Post by 2timothy316 »

bjs wrote:
I think most rational people understand the difference between idolatry and a birthday celebration.
The idol in the birthday celebration is the person of whom is being celebrated.

Some even consider one's birthday the highest of all holidays.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/new_details3.asp?ID=18841

I also find it interesting that there are people on this forum that claim they don't worship Jesus and that worshiping Jesus is idolatry. Yet they celebrate Christmas which is nothing but worship to Jesus. This is called hypocrisy.

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Post #30

Post by marco »

2timothy316 wrote:

All evidence says that December 25th was so that. "it became easier to convince Rome’s pagan subjects to accept Christianity as the empire’s official religion."

The church changing their beliefs to fit pagan worship, rather than the other way around. If you see that as good well then just...wow.

"You must not follow after other gods, any gods of the peoples who are all around you, for Jehovah your God who is in your midst is a God who requires exclusive devotion. Otherwise, the anger of Jehovah your God will blaze against you and he will annihilate you from the face of the earth." - Deuteronomy 6:14, 15

I agree that December 25, and the preceding weeks of "advent" replaced the Roman Saturnalia which was very popular. What was not done was a transfer of pagan deities. The date of Christ's birth wasn't known - one would have thought it should have been. It is appropriate to have various dates in the year that " commemorate". You ask whether Jesus would have approved. Yes, since he was very much in favour of followers "commemorating him." Claiming victory over people's minds by removing paganism from a period of celebration and putting there a celebration of the birth of Christ is rather clever. It is like destroying some old pagan temple and building there a church to honour God.

The magnificent Christian church of St Sophia in Istanbul was converted by the invading Muslims into a mosque in 1453. There was absolutely no suggestion that Islam was now practising Christianity: the conversion was a victory for Islam over Christianity in the same way that the removal of the Saturnalia celebrations for Christian rites was a Christian victory.

The result is that year after year the Bethlehem birth is commemorated. The cribs and lit churches, the carols and happy children do more for Christ than Luke's genealogy. Rather than condemn the wisdom of those who built Christian celebrations in December there should be Christian rejoicing at the triumph of Christianity over barbarism.

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